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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 18:16:34 GMT
Hello fellow Sword Enthusiasts. I've read and enjoyed the very useful guide: www.sword-buyers-guide.com/authentic-samurai-sword.html and spent the past few weeks educating myself on authentic Japanese Katana sword-smithing, but I'm still not clear on something and was hoping the community could help clear things up. Question - Can a forge folded Katana also have Lamination (e.g. Soshu Kitae)? Or is "folding" a form of Lamination. According to the SBG guide, I was under the impression they were mutually exclusive, but when I review the tech specs on available swords, it's one or the other. No mention of both. If Folding and Lamination could co-exist, how would that work? e.g 1095 "monosteel" wrapped around a 1060 "folded" steel in Kobuse style Lamination? I was even more thoroughly confused when I came across this sword: www.swordnarmory.com/Munetoshi-Tessen-Forge-Folded-Differentially-Harde-p/jh-3308gn.htmThe item specs indicate "Lamination: Folded Steel" ***I thought folded was different from lamination*** Appreciate any guidance. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 18:40:33 GMT
Lamination is a form of folding, but folding is not a form of lamination. Folding is the basic process used in lamination, the difference being that multiple steels are used in lamination, instead of folding the same steel on itself. Folding the steel into layers is basically done to push out the impurities of the metal. It is not a necessary process anymore due to the purity of modern steel, but it does leave a nice hada (grain) in the blade. This was originally done with the same steel. Lamination is folding different types of steel together, sometimes forming a pattern weld. Similar process, but with a twist. The idea is to mix together the different properties of the steels used. In the case of pattern welding, it can also be used to form a very distinct hada (ie, "damascus steel"). The more traditional method for a Japanese sword would be to fold with the same steel, then clay temper the edge (differential hardening) to form a hamon. An authentic Japanese katana from Japan (nihonto) will use tamahagane, or "jewel steel". It's actually kind of a crude steel compared to most modern varieties, but still very expensive and highly desirable. Unfortunately Japan has trade restrictions to keep it within Japan, so modern production katana (often from Chinese forges in sword-making cities like Longquan - "City of the Treasured Sword") use modern steels but apply traditional forging methods to them. Incidentally, most of these traditional Japanese forging methods came from China in the first place, so they're just returning to their founders now with modern production katana. Of course there are also many other places which production katana can come from, such as the Philippines for one. American swordsmiths are also well-reknown, but also quite expensive... They are often considered the next step down from a Nihonto (or at least their prices are! lol).
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Post by chrisperoni on Aug 14, 2012 19:18:52 GMT
No offense intended Ned, but I would not call lamination a form of folding. edit/add: well, now that I read again how you said one is a form of the other but not the other way around I get what you mean.. ya, I could see that making sense in broad way of speaking Folding was historically done to homogenize the steel = spread out the carbon content, or more correctly the different sections of the steel with varying carbon content, in order to make the steel more uniform in quality. Laminating is adhering two or more types of steel in order to exploit their differing qualities. Soft on the inside to flex/absob stress, hard on the outside for a keen edge etc. However you can fold two or more types of steel to get some nice hada (grain pattern) etc. and intermix their properties; which while similar to laminating is not the same thing- this mixes everything around. Laminating is specifically placing differing steels in a pre arranged pattern. In this pic: any of the different sections of the blade can have folded steel. The different colours are used as example to show all the lamination layers, Within each lamination layer you could have folded steel. I have a kobuse lamination with folded steel wrapped around the outside of a non folded steel core.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 19:52:56 GMT
Thanks for the replies. It's clear to me now that they are, in fact, separate. Too bad I haven't yet come across a blade that has both. Perhaps it is not economical/practical to do both any more, especially since folding is essentially for aesthetics
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Post by chrisperoni on Aug 14, 2012 20:26:33 GMT
you can easily order one - probably would be around $300 - $600 for a simpler lamination with a folded steel exterior.
Though part of the concern is certain steels might not respond well to being folded and laminated.
Ask the custom makers - Huaweiswords, Sinoswords.. others I can't remember
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Post by frankthebunny on Aug 15, 2012 5:31:43 GMT
I come from a background in furniture design and manufacturing so I always think of it like a maple burl veneer laminated on a plywood core or a cool patterned formica or melamine with a particle board core. you get the benefit of a good looking or tougher exterior with a more flexible or durable interior. similar to using a harder steel on the outside for edge retention and a softer steel in the core for flexibility. the only good reason I could see to having folded steel on the outside and a different steel on the inside of a modern made blade would be for aesthetics. basically I think smiths are folding steels like 1095 with 1060 to get the properties of both without having to laminate. with less experienced and less expensive forges folding steels these days my opinion is that you are taking more of a risk than going with a very pure mono steel since there could be more flaws from not folding correctly. if the smiths of old had access to the steels we have now like cpm-v3, I think there would have been a lot less folding and laminating in general.
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