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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 9, 2012 20:19:28 GMT
As the long-awaited film of The Hobbit is coming up, and with the current mild controversy over the form of Thorin's sword Orcrist in the film, I found myself thinking about the weapons of the films and how they related to each other. So, I thought, why not figure out some things about how the swords and such of the LOTR films and Tolkien's books are related? And it grew extensively from there... I will warn you that this gets long-winded and possibly boring. If you're bored... well, too bad. I'm not doing this for you, bored person! I'm doing this for myself and I decided to share it with you lot, and if you don't care, get out!  (moderators, that's not entirely serious... I do actually want people to read this) Without further ado, I present the introduction... ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ I. Intro ~The LegendariumBeginning in 1917 with the jotting of what would become ‘The Fall of Gondolin’ on the back of a sheet of marching music, J.R.R. Tolkien created the fantasy world of Middle-Earth. He told the story throughout various ‘scribblings’ until he wrote The Hobbit, which he later edited and revised to tie into the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Various other writings, the great majority of which were published after his death, have expanded immensely our knowledge of how deeply he created Middle-Earth’s history and lore. This legendarium inspired various adaptions throughout the years, but the best known and most recent is Peter Jackson’s trilogy of Lord of the Rings films and the upcoming ‘The Hobbit’ trilogy. Jackson and his production company, Weta Workshop, have been deeply invested in these films to the point of digging deeply into Tolkien’s lore and writing to draw inspiration. While one could write books—and indeed, many have—upon Tolkien, his work, and the films, I will focus here upon a specific type of object found within this legendarium: swords and weapons. Swords are a prominent part of Tolkien’s work, in both his writing and the adaptions thereof. Tolkien’s profession was the study of languages, but historical sagas and legends, specifically of the Dark Ages (the period between the fall of the Western Roman Empire CE 476 and, more or less, the 11th century CE), were one of his passions. This shows itself in how he depicts swords—nigh-if not actually magical objects, capable of wreaking great havoc and injury towards evil, shining in the hand of heroes, often bearing a name and occasionally an identity of their own to the point where they are almost characters in the story. Other weapons are also found worthy of note, such as Aiglos, the spear of Gil-galad, Angrist, the knife of Beren, and Dramborleg, the axe of Tuor, to name but a few. While I would love to go deeper, I believe it most expedient to address specifically the weapons seen in the Lord of the Rings films, and to a lesser extent in The Hobbit, as those have not been seen in depth yet. I intend to study from literary, filmic, cultural, and practical perspective these weapons. Weapons noted in the Silmarillion will also be commented upon, although not in depth as these have thus far only been portrayed in print and various illustrations. Notes may also be taken of illustrations by Alan Lee, John Howe and other designers from Weta Workshop used in the production of the Lord of the Rings films. ~Important NotesIt should be remembered that the majority of these are named weapons, borne by royalty, made to the highest quality. They are not typical of ‘normal’, ‘average’ weapons that would have been worn and wielded by common soldiers. For all that, they do follow in general their various cultural patterns, and as such common elements can be identified. Parallels, where available, will be drawn between existing ‘real world’ weapons and these weapons. I will attempt to examine all these weapons in rough chronological order. This is not as straightforward as one would think, and parallels cannot necessarily be drawn as well as we might like to our ‘real world’ history. Tolkien’s Elves were essentially immortal, and were brought into existence upon Arda before even the Sun and Moon were created—millennia before Humans were created. It is not impossible for an Elf who saw the Light of the Trees—the world’s second source of light, after the Lamps and before the Sun and Moon—to live well over eight thousand years, if not more, from Middle-Earth to Valinor, back to Middle-Earth and finally returning to Valinor at the end of the Third Age. When one is dealing with a lifespan this incomprehensibly long to mortal humans, one has to realize that Elven weapons may be very much older than one would think. As such, only fairly general guesses at age based upon what data Tolkien presented can be made. Finally, please remember that there is a degree of subjective suspension of disbelief necessary to read this. The assumption is implicit that we are dealing here with an actual society and history—one established by Tolkien and further interpreted by various artists and film-makers. Magic, for lack of a better word, does exist within this universe. ~Sources: Written by J.R.R. Tolkien: • The Silmarillion (ed. Christopher Tolkien) (QS, for Quenta Silmarillion) • The Hobbit (TH) • The Lord of the Rings (LOTR) • Divers other writings such as the Book of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, &c. that will be cited as necessary. (OW) Weapons and Warfare of the Lord of the Rings, written by Chris Smith (W&W) • A note regarding this book; while it is a decent book with some excellent illustrations, much of its data is flawed and conjectural, but is nonetheless presented as though it is factual. My conclusions may very likely differ from those of Mr. Smith’s, and the book is mainly referred to for its illustrations. The Art of the Lord of the Rings, written by Gary Russell (ALR) • These are largely production designs for the LOTR films, and as the great majority of them did not appear onscreen, these should be considered somewhat ‘non-canon’. They are nevertheless helpful in determining, to some degree, the design process used in creating these weapons. Various prop replicas crafted by United Cutlery in association with Weta Workshop (UC) ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ Thus endeth the first part. More after a while! |
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jhart06
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Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Aug 10, 2012 0:14:42 GMT
I encourage you to sign up on MyMiddleEarth.com and use their blog system to present this, or I can post it on my account.. You have the beginnings of something very exciting for a Tolkienian nerd like myself.
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Post by jcbarnett on Aug 10, 2012 1:41:56 GMT
This is an outstanding treatise thus far! I can't wait for your next part! As one who first read the Hobbit over 40 years ago - my own minds images of the various weapons of Middle earth is far from those that have been depicted in films and other works of fantasy. I am looking forward to your future posts!
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 10, 2012 15:50:12 GMT
Thank you all for the encouragement. I haven't written much beyond this next part, but it'll come within the week at the very least.
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II. Weapons of The Silmarillion
It is probably safe to guess that four weapons in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings at the very least are probably among the oldest of these that we deal with here: Glamdring, Orcrist, Sting, and Narsil. However, these aren’t the very oldest weapons in Tolkien’s legendarium. That privilege would have to belong to those identified in his Silmarillion and other writings. I will not comment on every weapon—there are quite a few.
Regrettably, Tolkien’s writing is not the most descriptive when it comes to most objects, not only weapons. His style is perhaps best associated with the Dark Ages poetic sagas and myths, such as the tale of Beowulf, the Finnish Kalevala, and the Volsunga Saga. Weapons tended to be described in terms of their characteristics rather than what they actually looked like. Nevertheless, there are a few exceptions.
Anglachel, also known as Gurthang, a sword created by Eöl the Dark Elf. It was created from a meteorite, ‘iron that fell from heaven as a blazing star; it would cleave all earth-delved iron’ (QS). This sword apparently had been crafted with an inherent spirit or inclination by its maker against anybody who would wield it; it is the weapon that kills its own wielder twice. First when Beleg Cúthalion cuts shackles binding Túrin, pricks Túrin’s foot with Anglachel and the crazed Túrin seizes it and slays him; second, when Túrin, released from the spell that Glaurung the Dragon placed upon him, realized that his sister Nienor had commited suicide, killed himself with it. After Túrin slew Beleg, he went to the Elven city of Nargothrond, where the sword was reforged into a new form and re-named Gurthang.
Much more could be said about Anglachel/Gurthang, Eöl the Dark Elf, and the sad story of Túrin Turambar Mormegil, but this is not the place. Suffice it to say that the only physical description of it is that its steel was black with shining edges (‘…and though ever black its edges shone with pale fire’, QS), and capable of withstanding the venomous blood of Glaurung; not much can be derived from this except that it was obviously a rather exotic alloy, perhaps Valarian in origin as the stars were created by the Vala Varda.
Morgoth Baugalir, the Black Enemy, wielded a mighty spear when he destroyed the Trees of Valinor, and in the only time he ever faced down an enemy on the battle-field, he bore the war-hammer Grond. ‘And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud… Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted.” (QS) This is a curiously late-medieval weapon for Tolkien; war hammers are best known from the time of plate armour, and Tolkien was strictly a Dark Ages scholar (see second paragraph below).
Ringil, the sword of the High King Fingolfin of the Noldor, receives little more description: “…and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.” (QS) He wields it alongside a shield, and as such it can be surmised that Ringil may have been sized for use with a single hand rather than being a longsword requiring two hands to wield. It is not impossible to create a longsword well balanced enough that it can be wielded with the single hand, especially for a king able to afford such a finely crafted weapon.
This is one area in which Tolkien diverges from film and artistic interpretations of the weapons he depicted in his writing, however. His swords are almost always modeled after Dark Age patterns—broad-bladed swords for use in one hand with a shield in the other, frequently ornately decorated with gems and precious metals. As such, he probably intended Ringil to be one such weapon.
Other weapons of note are Dramborleg, the axe of Tuor of Gondolin, which apparently was capable of moving upon its own; with it he slew five Balrogs during the Fall of Gondolin (OW). Angrist, a knife owned by Curufin son of Fëanor and taken by Beren, cut a Silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth; in trying to cut another Silmaril away, it broke and marked the face of Morgoth (QS). Húrin Thalion at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad wielded a mighty axe in two hands, and wreaked great havoc among the forces of Morgoth before being taken captive (QS). Aranrúth, sword of Elu Thingol King of Doriath and later his heir Dior Eluchíl, supposedly became a heirloom of the royal house of Númenor along with Dramborleg (OW). The latter is not impossible as Tuor’s son Eärendil the Mariner was the father of Elrond and Elros Half-Elven; their mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior Eluchíl. Elros became Tar-Minyatur, first King of Númenor.
With the rise of Númenor, we pass into the Second Age of Middle-Earth. There is very little, as far as I know, about Numenorean weapons aside from Dramborleg, Aranruth and Narsil. There is a mention, I believe, of longbows crafted from steel. With the fall of Númenor, we enter the Third Age. After this point, our primary sources are The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.
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jhart06
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Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Aug 10, 2012 16:15:29 GMT
Doing great... And I love you pointed out how WETA differs from Tolkien's likely intent. It works, but not the best perhaps.
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Post by jcbarnett on Aug 11, 2012 1:28:30 GMT
Very Very Good! I love what you have presented so far. Well researched and well written. Thanks!
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 12, 2012 20:23:11 GMT
This isn't anything very academic, I don't recall actually having a thesis in the first place But thank you! May I ask you to elaborate? Feel free to share your opinion here or PM me... if I decide to comment on something along these lines, I'll be sure to give you the appropriate credit  |
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 13, 2012 0:36:39 GMT
Again, thank you. Regrettably, I am remarkably short of references after I finish my Hobbit entry; I'll have to visit the local library to check out LOTR... a certain amount of data is being drawn from online sources such as the LOTR wikipedia, which has some entries with data from the stuff Tolkien never published. As such, I have to admit I probably won't be getting *too* deep into anything beyond what's covered in the movies. I will probably have some remarks about the physical differences between the races and how that drives weapon development, though. Food for thought... why don't the Rohirrim use sabers or curved swords?  That's something I might remark on as well... |
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Post by MEversbergII on Aug 14, 2012 19:32:39 GMT
Probably because the Ostragoths they were based on (Right? Though they speak something like Old English? I'm not good at this) didn't.
M.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 14, 2012 20:54:44 GMT
Honestly I can't say that the Rohirrim were based on the Ostrogoths. I think one remark I've heard sums it up better-- "Anglo-Saxons with horses". If anybody has any comments on the origin of the Rohirrim as written by Tolkien, feel free to post them here.
And I'd say it's pretty much because Tolkien probably knew curved swords were largely out of the picture at this point in time. Additionally, although this wouldn't have been his reason (not an expert on sword mechanics as far as I know), a straight sword cuts just as well as a curved sword, and the 'typical' Rohan sword is actually quite well suited to cutting... a broad, thin blade.
The main difference between the Rohan swords and more cavalry-oriented swords is they're a little on the short side-- 28" to 30" ish? Theoden's Herugrim is 27.5, Eowyn's is 30.5. Cavalry swords would tend to be a little longer, I think-- at least 32" perhaps. On the other hand, if Rohan horses aren't as large as modern horses (a fairly legitimate surmise I think), then the length may be less of an issue.
Anyway, I've got the Glamdring article well under way, and will be posting it soon! I have some fabulous pictures of the Master Swordsmith's Edition to go with it as well!
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jhart06
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Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Aug 14, 2012 22:05:57 GMT
I'd be cuatious takign the WETA/cinema specs of the swords as gospel. They were designed with visual appeal first, and accuracy second.. At least in my opinion they were. Very faithful on some (Anduril is done great, the elven blades... meh....).
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 15, 2012 4:40:53 GMT
Oh, absolutely; I should have specified that I was speaking of Weta's product when I was talking about the sword lengths and design. My bad. It's hard to not fill them in for Tolkien when the Prof was so sparse with details, though...
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 13, 2012 14:27:44 GMT
From a rec.humor.funny posting by <fa-aaaaaaat-dat-dawt-dtu.dk> dated 19 March 1996.
What you did not know about Windows 95
Recently one of my friends, a computer wizard, paid me a visit.
As we were talking I mentioned that I had recently installed Windows 95 on my PC. I told him how happy I was with this operating system, and showed him the Windows 95 CD. To my surprise he threw it into my microwave oven and turned the oven on. Instantly I got very upset, because the CD had become precious to me, but he said: 'Do not worry, it is unharmed.' After a few minutes he took the CD out, gave it to me and said: 'Take a close look at it.' To my surprise the CD was quite cold to hold and it seemed to be heavier than before. At first I could not see anything, but on the inner edge of the central hole I saw a inscription, an inscription finer than anything I have ever seen before. The inscription shone piercingly bright, and yet remote, as if out of a great depth:
12413AEB2ED4FA5E6F7D78E78BEDE8209450920F923A40EE10E510CC98D444AA08E1324
'I cannot understand the fiery letters,' I said.
'No, but I can,' he said. 'The letters are Hex, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Microsoft, which I shall not utter here. But in common English this is what it says:'
One OS to rule them all, One OS to find them,
One OS to bring them all and in the darkness bind them...
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 13, 2012 14:40:25 GMT
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 13, 2012 22:56:44 GMT
Yes, and being a sword it would be better to say "Orc beater" rather than "hammer". |
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Oct 14, 2012 6:21:47 GMT
The origins of the Rohirrim are covered in the Silmarillion. I don't have it with me, but if I recall correctly they came from the East, North of Mordor, after an invasion of Sauron's human minions along that same path, After the region had been depopulated by disease. They rode in on shaggy ponies and helped Gondor destroy the invaders. Gondor "gifted" them that land.
They seem very like Normans to me, really. Long spears thrown or used to stab, and rather shorter swords than we are used to seeing with cavalry.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 10, 2013 18:35:30 GMT
The format here will change a little bit. I am quoting passages from The Hobbit, and as that takes up so much space, I will list that first, then the analysis in a separate post.
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III. Weapons in The Hobbit
After this point, my format will change slightly. I will supply select quotes concerning the weapons seen in the The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, comment in general terms, and then address specific weapons. After that, I will comment on Weta Workshop’s design..
“…and among them were several swords of various makes, shapes and sizes. Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts.
“Gandalf and Thorin each took one of these; and Bilbo took a knife in a leather sheath. It would have made only a tiny pocket-knife for a troll, but it was as good as a short sword for the hobbit.
“’These look like good blades,’ said the wizard, half drawing them and looking at them curiously. ‘They were not made by any troll, nor any smith among men in these parts and days; but when we can read the runes on them, we shall know more about them.’” (TH, ‘Roast Mutton’)
“Elrond knew all about runes of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from the trolls’ lair, and he said: ‘These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon’s hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foehammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!’” (TH, ‘A Short Rest’)
“’Also he has not explained this!’ He held out the sword which Thorin had worn, the sword which came from the Trolls’ lair.
“The Great Goblin gave a truly awful howl of rage when he looked at it, and all his soldiers gnashed their teeth, clashed their shields, and stamped. They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls. They had called it Orcrist, Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter. They hated it and hated worse any one that carried it.
[…]
“Suddenly a sword flashed in its own light. Bilbo saw it go right through the Great Goblin as he stood dumbfounded…
“Then Gandalf lit up his wand… He took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave. It made no trouble whatever of cutting through the goblin-chains and setting all the prisoners free as quickly as possible. This sword’s name was Glamdring the Foe-Hammer, if you remember. The goblins just called it Beater, and hated it worse than Biter if possible. Orcrist, too, had been saved; for Gandalf had brought it along as well, snatching it from one of the terrified guards.
[…]
“’About turn!’ he shouted. ‘Draw your sword Thorin!’
“There was nothing else to be done; and the goblins did not like it. They came scurrying round the corner in full cry, and found Goblin-cleaver, and Foe-hammer shining cold and bright right in their astonished eyes… ‘Biter and Beater!’ they shrieked; and soon they were all in confusion, and most of them were hustling back the way they had come.” (TH, chapter ‘Over Hill and Under Hill’)
“But in slapping all his pockets and feeling all round himself for matches his hand came on the hilt of his little sword—the little dagger that he got from the trolls, and that he had quite forgotten; nor fortunately had the goblins noticed it, as he wore it inside his breeches.
“Now he drew it out. It shone pale and dim before his eyes. ‘So it is an elvish blade too;’ he thought; ‘and goblins are not very near, and yet not far enough.’
“But somehow he was comforted. It was rather splendid to be wearing a blade made in Gondolin for the goblin-wars of which so many songs had sung; and also he had noticed that such weapons made a great impression on goblins that came upon them suddenly.” (TH, ‘Riddles in the Dark’)
“Then the great spider who had been busy tying him up… As it was, he had a desperate fight before he got free. He beat the creature off with his hands—it was trying to poison him to keep him quiet, as small spiders do to flies—until he remembered his sword and drew it out. Then the spider jumped back, and he had time to cut his legs loose. After that it was his turn to attack. The spider evidently was not used to things that carried such stings at their sides, or it would have hurried away quicker. Bilbo came at it before it could disappear and stuck it with his sword right in the eyes. Then it went mad and leaped and danced and flung out its legs in horrible jerks, until he killed it with another stroke[…] The spider lay dead beside him, and his sword-blade was stained black…as he wiped his sword on the grass and put it back into its sheath.
“’I will give you a name,’ he said to it, ‘and I shall call you Sting.’” (TH, ‘Flies and Spiders’)
“Dain had come. He had hurried on through the night, and so had come upon them sooner than they had expected. Each one of his folk was clad in a hauberk of steel mail that hung to his knees, and his legs were covered with hose of a fine and flexible metal mesh, the secret of whose making was possessed by Dain’s people. The dwarves are exceedingly strong for their height, but most of these were strong even for dwarves. In battle they wielded heavy two-handed mattocks; but each of them also had a short broad sword at his side and a roundshield slung at his back. Their beards were forked and plaited and thrust into their belts. Their caps were of iron and they were shod with iron, and their faces were grim.
[…]
“The elves were the first to charge. Their hatred for the goblins is cold and bitter. Their spears and swords shone in the gloom with a gleam of chill flame, so deadly was the wrath of the hands that held them. As soon as the host of their enemies was dense in the valley, they sent against it a shower of arrows and each flickered as it fled as if with stinging fire. Behind the arrows a thousand of their spearmen leapt down and charged. The yells were deafening. The rocks were stained black with goblin blood.
“Just as the goblins were recovering from the onslaught and the elf-charge was halted, there rose from across the valley a deep-throated roar. With cries of ‘Moria!’ and ‘Dain, Dain!’ the dwarves of the Iron Hills plunged in, wielding their mattocks, upon the other side; and beside them came up the men of the Lake with long swords.” (TH, ‘The Clouds Burst’)
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 11, 2013 23:56:34 GMT
Wait, you mean Sting could have been a . . . . SAX?
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 12, 2013 23:11:30 GMT
Regrettably, Tolkien specifies a 'little dagger' and always notes that for Bilbo, Frodo and Sam it's a 'sword', indicating (probably) double edges. It would be very sweet if it had been a seax though, I agree... you could make a very strong argument for it being one, honestly.
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(moderators, that's not entirely serious... I do actually want people to read this)
That's something I might remark on as well...
