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Post by K. Vander Linde on Aug 2, 2012 19:31:36 GMT
I would like to put ornimentation on a great helm similar to this one. However i have no idea how to go about this. Is it done Before assembaly? Can it be done to a already assembled helm? ~Thanks
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 2, 2012 19:46:25 GMT
I believe it's put on after assembly.
Not quite sure how it would be done, but here's how *I* might do it...
The 'horns' are probably hollow metal, right? If they're sufficiently long enough, I would cut matching circles out of the sides of the helm. Then, before putting in the ends of the horns, I would cut them about six or eight times around the end, and after I fit them in, fold open the cut ends so they stay within the helmet. After I did that, I would spot-weld the ends to the inside of the helmet. That way, they'd stay pretty darn well, unless some big galoot knocked it awry...
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jhart06
Member
Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Aug 2, 2012 21:23:00 GMT
Are you wanting it for a decorative element, or have some durability and strength so if it hits a door jamb it'll stay on?
I agree with Fin, if I square off against you I'm closing as fast as possible, getting my shield into your front range and striking at those horns until you don't know who, what, where, when, why or how it's happening. But they do look lovely.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 2, 2012 21:42:45 GMT
I will note that historically these decorations were almost certainly removable/could be snapped off easily enough... They were often made with papier-mache or painted leather, light materials like that. They generally saw use in jousting, where you're poking at each other with long sticks from horseback. In foot combat, off they go.
So yeah, I might look at making these out of light wood or leather on top of a removable cap that you can put on or take off as desired...
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Post by Beowulf on Aug 3, 2012 2:32:13 GMT
What do you mean by ornamentation? Permanently attached metal crests are a bad idea. Yes, everyone is right, crests were light wood, wire, leather, paper mache-like substances. The crest was removable. I will say that IMO originally they were used in battle. Where is it most important to know the identity of an individual? During a sportive friendly combat game or when you send a man or men in to a particular place in the battle line to do or react to a certain possibility? I look at these crests as having the same function as earlier culture's crests (Roman, Celtic, Assyrian, etc.) You can tell what rank (in earlier crest sometimes) the person is or perhaps their identity (with the knight), but the often overlooked point is that you can tell where their looking/facing. So you get an idea of what they're reacting to, or where they are going to. Then you can adjust strategy accordingly. If you have a clump of officer/knight ranked men in one place and their all focused on one spot and some of them are looking back at the command section, well, you might look further and determine their trying to block a breach of the line and want help. Just my opinion. Ornamentation? Well, we have a great helm with a gold or bronze painted cross on it with fleur-de-lis endings. Looks like it's a gold or brass attached piece, but it is painted. I just read something about great helms where this guy decided to try and find brass faceplate crosses in period artwork. He didn't find any. Not that they didn't exist, but he finally got tired of looking. So the brass fleur-de-lis finialed crosses blazoned on the front of the modern reproductions seems to be a meme. They had them, but of iron or steel for the most part. In the 14th and 15th centuries you had men painting stuff on the sides and back of their helms. I also doubt a lot of these were "white" as they called it, or bare polished steel. We have a lot of suits that were polished up in museums BY museums looooong after they were in use on a field. Look at period art- you can find white armours, but a lot of stuff is blackened or browned. The whole "Black Prince" nickname for the English noble is a modern meme also as far as I have read. Lots of guys rustproofed their armour. From madrone.equestrianguild.org/Arti ... combat.htm "According to Terence Wise, in Medieval Heraldry, helmet crests were made of molded leather, parchment, whalebone, beaten copper sheets, plumes and feathers, or canvas stretched over a wicker frame, thin wood, or paper mache. He does not distinguish which methods were medieval and which were modern." also "In Tournaments, Richard Barber suggests that crests were " constructed of light materials -- cloth over a wooden frame, perhaps, and would have been totally impractical for real warfare." Later he quotes Traites du Duel Judiciarie. "The crest, made of cuir bouilli and attached to the top of the helm is given a place of pride at the head of the list of armor to be worn." IBut I gotta ask.. what is "impractical for real warfare"? To me that would be permanently attached metal or otherwise heavy stuff on your head. But you know, I'd want to live and be "crest-fallen" rather than die because I have a solid oak mermaid attached to my great helm. cheers!
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Aug 3, 2012 21:17:27 GMT
Thanks for all the replies. The reason I want to put these on a helm if for parade purposes, As I would not were a great helm in combat, it's just not my preference. anyway Thanks again for the replies they were quite informative.
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Post by Beowulf on Aug 4, 2012 0:16:59 GMT
here, look at the Prankhe Helm that is in Vienna. www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... c&start=20 second post down, big horns. If I'm remembering right these horns are leather. Which doesn't mean they are just leather, but probably on a framework or something. I recall a source I looked at that said to stitch the leather into the shape required, wet in hot water, fill with sand and stitch closed. Wait until dried, then unstitch and empty the sand. Of course a lot of this stuff would have been coated with "gesso grosso" or other formulations that were like a whitewash with gypsum and other things added to stiffen the dried coats. So medieval plasters basically. Do some hunting around the web, just enough info is available in bits and pieces to duplicate or get an idea of what modern stuff to substitute. Sorry I can't just toss out my sources right now. I'm away from my main computer.
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Post by Beowulf on Aug 4, 2012 0:22:23 GMT
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