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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 14:43:20 GMT
Forgive me for the cross post on this one. I accidentally posted this in the "historical arms talk" forum when it should probably be posted here.
That having been said, I'm looking for a serviceable one handed sword and a shield. They don't need to be show-worthy but need to be durable and able to take abuse. Until i stared reading the forums here I was thinking badgerblades.com would be the way to go in the sword department. But from the sounds of it those swords aren't looked on very highly. So I'm looking for something that will hold up in steel on steel (or steel on hardwood) contact. While not feeling like I'm wielding a club or axe.
Any recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks.
-Dan
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jul 25, 2012 15:05:11 GMT
Well, Dan, I have just two questions for you: 1) Are you looking for a blunt for stage fighting or a sharp for cutting? 2) What is your budget? I ask because you mentioned that you want it to be able to hold up to steel on steel/hardwood contact, which is generally not what most people get sharps for (though knowing it can stand up to such abuse is pretty nice), and I took a quick glimpse at the Badger Blades and they're relatively expensive for what you get. Now, if you're looking to get a sharp, there are quite a few options you can choose from: the H/T ESHMS, the VA Practical Arming Sword, or any of the Angus Trim arming swords available through TriedandTrueArmory.com will fit your needs perfectly. As would the Albions at the higher end, though those may very well be out of your budget. If you want a blunt, the main options I know of are Baltimore Knife & Sword and Albion (their Maestro Line I:33). As for a shield, there are some you can buy, but generally speaking, it's probably cheaper to just make your own; there's a tutorial to do just that here, courtesy of Gaffer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 15:35:13 GMT
I want something I can practice with and will be a good and sturdy sword. I don't want just a bar steel as I can fire up my forge and just smith me one of those myself. My price range is roughly that of the badger blades's all steel swords ~$300 give or take. But I only want to spend that if I'm going to get a good quality blade. I like badger's advert that they are built strong to combat armor my logic being that they will handle the rigors of metal vs metal contact fairly well. But when I pick up my sword, I want it to be a sword and not some strap of spring steel. Does that make sense?
As for the shield, I've kicked around making my own and haven't ruled that out yet with a wood/leather shield. But I'd prefer something like a metal round shield as I'd feel more comfortable sparing with a piece of steel on my arm as opposed to wood.
But I'm just starting out on this. And it's been part of my gonna do list for a long time. So I'm just trying to find where to start and with what. And to do so without getting taken advantage of.
Thanks for your input. I'll check those blades out and if you can send any more advice my way I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.
-Dan
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jul 25, 2012 16:24:13 GMT
Well, frankly, Badger's advert that they're built strong to combat armor is bunk. No sword is meant to bang on armor, let alone another sword. The general idea was to go for the gaps; armpit, kneepit, elbow crease, etc. when dealing with plate armor or the gaps between the rings when dealing with ringmail. That's the primary reason the tips of swords started becoming narrower. If you look at something like the Albion Talhoffer, it has a narrow blade and a needle point so it can slip into the gaps in armor and be half-sworded fairly easily. Anyways, basically, what it sounds like you're looking for is a sword that handles an actual sword rather than a crowbar that just happens to look like a sword, correct? In that case, the examples I listed will serve just fine. The ATrim and Albions are beyond your budget, though the ATrims would definitely be worth investing in and start at 440$ (the price goes up when you start customizing the guard, pommel, and grip you want); the entire catalog that Tried & True Armory offers at present can be found here. However, if you'd like to keep it in the sub-300$ range and get a scabbard (which ATrims do not come with), the H/T ESHMS or the VA Practical I mentioned earlier will do quite nicely. I have the H/T and it's a good, solid sword, though the grip is a little on the thin side (I have smaller hands and don't notice it as much, but I wouldn't mind thickening it up some). Hmm, a round metal shield? In that case, I have the perfect thing: a Steel Round Shield by Windlass Steelcrafts. I don't have any personal experience with it, but I believe one or two of our members own it (I believe Mike Harris, in particular), so they could give you more info on it.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jul 25, 2012 16:31:16 GMT
I'm kinda amused no one mentioned the classic type associate with medieval sword and buckler combat- Windlass XIV, and it is one of the better windlasses, and handles nicely. Sub $200 as well.
As far as wood v.s. Steel... Honestly, the difference isn't huge unless you are using it 2-3 days plus a week with 3-4 hours a day or such. Get 3/4" oak hardwood ply. If the Romans and Norse used it without complaint, I'd say it's good enough for us.
That should, if you buy the XIV from KoA, get you out the door for under $300 total if you make your own. If not, it should be annoyingly close.
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Post by Neil G. on Jul 25, 2012 20:31:46 GMT
Yeah, I was thinking that myself - if you are interested in I.33 sword & buckler fighting I'd probably get the Windlass Type XIV sword and one of the mid-sized bucklers from GDFB. www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... ming+Sword $189 & in stock www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... 2D+12+Inch $36 & also in stock. www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... 2D+12+inch (leather covered if you prefer fancy) also roughly $37. And the good thing is, since the XIV comes unsharpened you can go ahead and practice a bit more vigorously with it until you get really skilled and THEN consider sharpening it yourself (plenty of tutorials for that on this site too).
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Post by John P on Jul 25, 2012 20:51:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 20:59:25 GMT
Thanks guys for the info. I'm not looking for I.33 (didn't even know what that was until you brought it up). What I'm looking for is more like this: Looking for the larger shield. And wanting to start working on using it with sword and then maybe also try learning spear techniques as well. Both the Windlass Type XIV sword and shield combo you guys recommended look up my alley. I did read up on Windlass and it seems they are based out of India. I hate to show prejudice but does this company compare well US and European companies? I've been burnt before on blades originating from India (and Pakistan) in the past. So if adding $40 to the price will get me a "night and day" better blade then I'm all for that. Thanks guys for the heads-up on I.33 I'll have to look into that as well...... -Dan
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jul 25, 2012 21:28:50 GMT
I don't know about "night and day", but Windlass swords consistently run a decent rating. Are they awesomely impressive? Nah. But are they perfectly fine at their price level? Yep. The Oakeshott XIV is under $200, and you're actually getting a heck of a lot of sword for that price; it's one of their better/best pieces, and easily customizable. Windlass has a pretty good track record with the shorter pieces anyway; it's when their swords start getting longer that they get a little more questionable (distal taper issues, mainly an issue of handling, not so much anything else). I'd say they're probably up there at the top of the sub 300 Euro sword category along with Hanwei. So I'd go for it if I were you and wanted instant gratification... if you want to seriously train, take the time to get something like the Alchem, but I'd still get the Windlass just cause it's that nice
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Post by John P on Jul 25, 2012 23:21:20 GMT
What is your goal in this study? Are you looking to make up your own stuff or are you looking to figure out a historical system of fighting?
Here are some I:33 and liechtenauer longsword guys using those arts to inform there large shield work.
edit: added another video
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 23:57:58 GMT
I checked out those videos and the videos you posted actual had a link that lead to what I'm looking for to some extent. [youtube] ... r_embedded[/youtube] Is there a certain style or form for this type of shield work?
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Post by Voltan on Jul 26, 2012 0:18:50 GMT
Fixed that for you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 0:45:47 GMT
Thanks. I was having a horrid time trying to get that to work....
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Post by John P on Jul 26, 2012 2:05:43 GMT
looking at his web sight it looks like he is making up a system of spear and shied fighting by complying information from a bunch of different sources mainly eastern martial arts. apittman.com/blog/
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jul 26, 2012 2:10:26 GMT
Yeah, not so sure on it, but looks neast.
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Post by Neil G. on Jul 26, 2012 16:11:49 GMT
If you're looking for Greek inspired weapon & shield tactics then the first thing I'd tell you is to stop looking for a sword and instead look for a decent spear. Swords were mostly a backup weapon for Greek warriors. I think Post Marian Reform Roman Legionaries were really the first organized Army to rely heavily on the sword (most others used spear & shield or bows). Anyway, when it comes to spears you might have to assemble one yourself though, as few people like shipping 8' long ash poles. The other problem is that there aren't many organized schools teaching truly ancient fighting systems. Anything before the 13th Century that isn't derived directly from a living tradition (think Eastern Martial Arts) is mostly going to be based on conjecture as, there are no fighting manuals from that age. As far as I know the I.33 manual is the oldest extant western martial arts codex out there. The Hammaborg guys were reconstructing Viking fighting tactics and styles based on Lichtenauer tradition sword & shield techniques (14th Century) and then adapting them for use with Viking style weapons and armor. But if you're determined to do the Spartan thing... Kult of Athena would be a great place to start... Ash Pole for $25 www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... Spear+Pole For Safer Training: Blunted Get Dressed for Battle Spear Head $22 (for training) www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... Spear+Head Rounded Spear Butt Cap $23 www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... r+Butt+Cap For Training with Sharps once you're comfortable: Greek Spear Head $43 www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... Spear+Head Greek Spear Butt Cap $20 www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=600036Greek Aspis Shield... unfortunately there are no cheap alternatives, really - $400. Making one from scratch would be difficult since it uses a lot of shaping that that would be difficult to replicate at home. www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... 2D+Spartan As for swords, I'd probably recommend something like this for training: BKS Stage Combat Greek Hoplite $275 www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... lite+Sword or Spartan Lakonian $130 www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... n+Lakonian (again, this one has the advantage that it comes unsharpened, but can be made very keen with a bit of elbow grease)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 16:49:09 GMT
Hmm.. Ok I have to thank you guys for helping me evolve my training goals. Until now I guess I had the cart before the horse so to speak, with getting the shield/weapon before knowing exactly how I'm planning on applying it.
I'm drawn to the Greek/Italian styles (maybe because of my heritage) and i guess that was what I was kinda thinking of when I set out. But as I'm seeing now shields are not one and the same as I had thought. From the looks of it you have ones that are held in a single hand kinda like an extension of your fist. You have ones that "sleeve" your arm and act as an outward extension of your forearm. The latter feels more natural to me for some reason.....
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Post by John P on Jul 26, 2012 17:22:38 GMT
It's a little latter than you are looking for but if you are looking for Italian arts there is a very good longsword manual by Fiore dei Liberi from the 1400s. Fiore has a spear system but we haven't looked in to it yet. There is a related manual with a sword and buckler system but it isn't translated yet. Here is a free manual that my instructor put together www.worksofrichardmarsden.com/fiorelongsword.htmand I think that there is some Bolognese work that have a sword and shield.
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Post by Neil G. on Jul 26, 2012 19:22:57 GMT
If you're looking for inspiration as to styles and maybe even to find a school near you that might be able to help guide your journey then I'd recommend you check out the forums over at www.hemaalliance.com . It's a great resource for anyone that wants to practice western martial arts. Some of the world's most prominent western martial artists post on there with frequency covering everything from Italian & German Longsword to spear fighting to axe fighting techniques to Sword & Buckler Fighting to Combat Grappling...
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Post by MOK on Jul 27, 2012 19:46:00 GMT
Yeah, one common way to classify shields is the way they're held. There are basically two types: shields with a simple grip in the center, and shields that attach to your forearm by a system of straps or somesuch (these also have grips, but not in the middle). But there are other factors, too - for example, an all-metal buckler, a planked viking shield and a Roman scutum are all center grip shields, but very different in size, construction and use. Here's a nice historical overview of European shield types over at myArmoury.com.
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