Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 6, 2012 23:30:45 GMT
I've seen vertical sword displays where they have a base with a little slanted crater for the saya's tip to rest in, and then a vertical column with a "horseshoe" on top to lean the blade into. Is it OK to display/store a katana in that manner without stressing the blade and interior of the saya?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2012 0:09:53 GMT
Tachi and Odachi often use vertical stands like you describe. The horizontal stands we're used to seeing are for katana. So if you're thinking of getting one of these stands for a katana, I would make absolutely sure that you know the manufacture specs on it so that your katana will fit, as most of these stands were made for larger blades.
I couldn't tell you for a fact if it's good or not, but I'll share a few thoughts... katana should always be kept with the mune toward the ground so that gravity doesn't push the ha against the saya. So I would imagine that as long as the blade is leaning a little towards the mune that vertical storage should be alright.
Again, those are just thoughts on the matter - not experience or scientific knowledge. I often lean swords vertically (again, leaned towards the mune) while stored in a sword bag. It's never been a problem for me.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 7, 2012 0:30:39 GMT
Yes. But the tachi sits with the kashira on the base of the tachi kake,the vertical stand),ha facing inward.The tachi kake would be near the seated samurai.In seiza it is simple to draw your tachi from the stand. On a horizontal stand the tachi is seated ha down mune up. Katan on a horizontal stand is seated ha up,tsuka to the right in times of hostility.Tsuka to the left in times of peace or when displaying non hostility.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 7, 2012 1:27:17 GMT
Please forgive me, as I have not learned all of the Japanese Sword Vocabulary. So what you're saying is that the handle is on the bottom, and the sword's sharp side is resting on the "horseshoe" on the vertical column?
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 7, 2012 2:22:41 GMT
No problem Kuya. Yes the handle(tsuka) is on the bottom.The kashira is the pommel,handle end.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2012 2:53:41 GMT
Yes, to echo John Walker... the tsuka is definitely on the bottom of the vertical stand with a tachi. I totally forgot that.
As far as ha or mune up, the katana way is switched opposite from the tachi way in almost every situation... not just how you place it on the stand, but also how you wear it. That's why I like the katana style, though the tachi has an older ancestry. Having the ha up and mune down in both carrying and storage saves the saya from wear, but also allows for smooth-as-butter quick drawing without cutting the saya. It's actually a safer method if you're drawing and sheathing your blade a lot. The tachi however is meant to be worn suspended from the belt, ha down instead... much like European swords. In fact, the katana is probably the only sword I can think of that is meant to be carried "upside down". I love that style, but it's the exception and not the norm.
PS... just in case you don't know the difference between a tachi and a katana (since you said you don't know all the Japanese terms) - the Tachi predates the Katana and has two fittings on the saya to suspend it from your belt. The katana on the other hand is meant to be slipped into the obi, and instead has a sageo cord attached to the kurikata of the saya for general tying needs (when wearing the katana, the sageo can be worn wrapped up in the obi). Of course you've probably seen the sageo on most of your store-bought swords in a fancy knot called a "merchant's knot". This was a presentation knot used by merchants carrying katana as a status symbol more than by samurai, who usually leave their sageo with one simple knot and the rest of the cord hanging loose to be used. As far as the blades, they're pretty similar except that tachi often have a deeper sori (curve) to the blade than katana do. I use my sageo all the time so I always undo the merchant's knot if I get a katana with one. Ther merchant's knot is also very bad for the condition of the sageo.
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Post by MOK on Jul 7, 2012 5:18:01 GMT
Lots of light sabers, shashqa etc. were carried edge up.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 7, 2012 5:30:17 GMT
Gah... so confusing. If the katana and wakizashi were just tucked into the kimono belt, how did they keep them from falling? If they're able to be tucked in, then the belt obviously isn't super tight and with walking or running, won't the jostle loose from the belt and fall to the ground? I always thought the "sageo" was tied around the waist so that the saya and sword (when sheathed) wouldn't fall. What keeps them up if they're just tucked in?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2012 5:56:40 GMT
The kurikata and sageo is what keeps the saya from falling out of the obi but the sageo is usually just wrapped around the obi a bit. Personally, I do tie mine around the waist... one reason being that I like to be able to wear it without an obi since I live in modern-day Canada, not feudal Japan, and normally don't have an obi on, lol. I like being able to wear my sword without having to get all dressed up in a particular garment just so I can practice drawing. I also like the feel of the sageo holding the saya rather than the obi, but maybe that comes from my previous experience with European swords. Again, that's just personal preference and not the traditional way.
When the katana is in the saya you won't have to worry about it slipping. It's only when the katana is drawn that the saya becomes dangerously loose and benefits from the sageo being stuck to the obi.
Thanks, I didn't know that!
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Post by MOK on Jul 7, 2012 19:49:33 GMT
The sageo secures the saya to the obi, not to the waist. You push the saya under your obi just far enough that when the sword is in it stays put and in the desired position largely by virtue of its balance; the sageo is looped through the kurikata near the mouth of the saya and its loose ends tied around the back end of the saya, in a casual, fast and loose sort of way, often with an actual slipknot, unless you're preparing for serious activity; this (and, usually, your left hand) stops the saya from slipping out forward when drawing the sword, and the kurikata itself stops the empty scabbard from slipping out backward. You'd also use the saya of your wakizashi, which you wear basically as long as you wear your clothes, as a sort of lever to tighten and loosen your obi as needed.
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Post by ken~kata on Jul 8, 2012 17:47:50 GMT
For my Raptor Daisho ,I stood up my swords with the Ha facing up/outward... My other Vertical Stand has the Ha facing inward... (By Design).. Most Vertical standing Swords I see on the Internet was Mune facing outward.. Does this have anything to do with "Warpage", or, just the Sharp Edge resting/pressing against the saya walls? Ken Attachments:
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 8, 2012 19:06:46 GMT
From my understanding it is based around a samurai seated in seiza being able to access his tachi quickly if needed. With the ha out,mune in, he then has to spin the tachi to cut during the draw.With the tachi standing ha in,mune out,that extra movement is eliminated. I am just guessing at this however based on the fact that the tachi was stood tsuka down so the seated samurai could grab it easily.So it would make sense to me to have the weapon as ready as possible.I could be wrong on this tho. Nice stand btw.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Jul 8, 2012 20:04:06 GMT
I'd just make sure I kept it in its saya if using a vertical stand. Otherwise, you'd leave the sharp edge out facing into the room where people might accidentally hit. I have to keep this in mind as most of my katanas are on display without their sayas.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jul 8, 2012 20:09:26 GMT
Are vertical displays safe for katana? I'd say about as safe as for any other sword that is displayed in a vertical fashion.
Its not like a katana is a light saber that'll cleave through anything they come in contact with...
Yes there are certain rules pertaining to the display of katana, tachi, wakizashi etc. but if you didn't want to be traditional (which most people aren't) then they don't matter. So long as the sword is kept safe from falling and from the touching finger of ignorants they can be displayed vertically, horizontally, right side up, upside down whatever.
Everyone else's posts are actually answering a question you hadn't asked - "Are vertical sword displays correct for katana?"
To answer your question directly - yes.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 8, 2012 20:24:58 GMT
Oh good point.I had assumed we were talking about in the saya,my bad.It would have been displayed in the saya.No dont display it bare. I hadnt even thought that that may be what was being asked,good to point that out.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 8, 2012 20:28:59 GMT
Correct Sam,although there is a more practical reason for a tachi to be stood tsuka down on a vertical stand.It focuses the tachis weight lower,otherway around the tach would be top heavy in the stand. And my very first statement was yes it is safe for a katana.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 8, 2012 21:01:35 GMT
I wasn't planning on displaying it bare... that's unsafe and kinda dumb to me, that's like displaying a loaded gun, with a cartridge in the chamber, with the safety off. No thanks.
My main concern was how the weight on the sword would affect it while in the saya. There was the whole "blade up" thing with horizontal stands I didn't know about until I started reading up on swords just a few months ago. I wasn't sure how vertical stands affected the whole blade and saya and stress... until now, thanks to all of you.
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