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Post by Joeandmich on Jun 29, 2012 16:40:23 GMT
I've gotten different answers from different forums concerning ancient Greek swords and would like to hear from you guys.
Which sword was developed first?
The Kopis
The Xiphos
The Lakonia
Was the Spartan Lakonia a different sword than the Xiphos or just a shorter Xiphos?
Thanks,
Joe
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Post by CivilSavage on Jul 1, 2012 7:00:30 GMT
The Xiphos, without a doubt. It developed from the Mycenean bronze age sword almost directly. The Kopis may have had a bronze antecedent but I have not seen an example personally. I believe that there was a bronze single eged sword found in Northern Italy which was a singular example. I have never heard a specific time frame of development for the Kopis though it does seem to figure farily early in Greek pottery art. I'd imagine they were around but just not as popular as the xiphos in the public mind of that time. In fact the Kopis may not even be originally Greek it may very well have been a Thracian weapon in origin or at least derivation.
I am not exactly sure what you mean by the 'lakonian'. I am hoping you mean that particular sword carried by the Spartans and not the MRL Lakonian sword. MRL's sword is loosely based on a bronze miniature sword that was likely part of a statuary display. As for the Spartan sword it was a preferential development of a smaller xiphos. Nothing more, nothing less. Same construction and relative blade form as the standard sized xiphos.
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Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Jul 1, 2012 14:20:10 GMT
Yes, "Lakonian" is just a shorter xiphos Spartans started to use sometimes during the 5th century BC. During the Persian wars they still used normal length xiphos. And about kopis, I have seen pictures of pottery on which kopis is depicted, but interestingly in Persian hands, not Greek. So it might be that they adopted the kopis from foreigners. In museum in Zagreb, Croatia, I have seen a bronze battle knife very similar in shape to kopis or falcata but smaller. It was Ilyric weapon.
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Post by CivilSavage on Jul 2, 2012 5:08:49 GMT
I had noticed to that the kopis or machaira was usually in 'barbarian' hands (not necessarily Persian but Thracian, Phrygian or any other non-Greek antagonist). I have always felt that the kopis was derived from a more northerly Balkan or Central Asian(around the Black Sea region) culture. It is definitely not Persian. There is no evidence of it in the archaeological record or the pictographic scultural or painted evidence.
The Spartan sword became most prominent during the Pelopennesian War.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jul 5, 2012 19:57:26 GMT
One theory I've heard for the portrayal of the kopis/machiara as a 'barbarian' weapon is that the Greeks were arrogant xenophobes with a hypocritical sense of chivalry. Swordplay was largely foreign to them, and the kopis and machiara were particularly considered 'barbaric' weapons, I suspect because they were capable of dealing great damage very quickly in close quarters... something most hoplites weren't really down with, preferring to keep the enemy a safe distance away on the tips of their spears!
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Post by CivilSavage on Jul 7, 2012 0:24:07 GMT
Greeks may not have esteemed swordsmanship but they were likely handy with a blade. They had the most advanced documented martial arts of the time dating back to the 8th century BC. These were boxing, wrestling and the art of pankration. These arts would teach the fundamentals on up to advanced concepts of timing and distance, footwork, as well as body manipulation. As to why the machaira/kopis was shown in barbarian hands is like I said...it was likely barbarian derived as a weapon.
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Post by Joeandmich on Jul 11, 2012 17:19:38 GMT
Thanks folks
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Post by MOK on Jul 18, 2012 10:43:08 GMT
BTW, there is no sword type one could justifiably call "a lakonia" (or laconia - the Cs and Ks are kinda interchangeable in anglicized Greek, since it's always pronounced hard, like K, anyway). Laconia, AKA Lacedaemonia, is the region of Greece where Sparta was located: thus Spartan citizens and subjects alike were called Laconians or Lacedaemonians after their homeland ("Spartans" referred to the citizens exclusively), their straight swords were of course Laconian xiphoi, and their characteristic style of terse, deadpan repartee is still termed laconic.
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Post by MOK on Jul 18, 2012 10:51:21 GMT
Regarding the kopis as a barbarian weapon, it's also possible this was just an artistic trope, akin to many Medieval illustrations equipping foreign warriors with falchions to distinguish them from the cruciform sword wielding Christians (leading to the popular conception of Arabic scimitars as the sharply widening, clip-pointed things you see in everything from most illustrated versions of Arabian Nights right up to Disney's Aladdin).
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