TomK
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Post by TomK on Jul 2, 2012 22:33:53 GMT
I'm very glad this worked out for you. yup, that's a nicely sharpened sword, I have no doubts about it. I never thought about the laser test but I would guess that if you had any flat spots or burs etc. that would break the laser up in strange ways and be a tell-tale sign that it wasn't right. sounds like a cool thing to see though. hope you wore your laser safety glasses.
by the way, cutting an empty bottle can be very challenging even with a really sharp blade so you are doing more than just your sharpening right.
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Post by CloaknDagr on Jul 3, 2012 2:01:15 GMT
Yeah, safety glasses and very careful with this sword too.
Cutting an empty bottle IS very challenging, I left out a lot of the learning curve for the sake of brevity. You have to hit it just so, the strike has to both bite into the bottle AND hold it in place. The strike angle of attack and blade alignment have to be nearly perfect. To do that, I had to set the bottle on the edge of a wooden block so that the strike came through the bottle at a downward angle of +/- 45 degrees (or maybe a little steeper, this is just an estimate) pushing it down onto the block as it cuts through the bottle but not striking the block with the blade. Which I did anyway more than once but it hasn't seemed to hurt anything but the block.
Firing a laser beam at the blade shows the quality of the polish of the blade, you're right. If there are any blemishes, flats, etc. the laser beam shows those by scattering off of the multifaceted surface. Just for comparison I hit the a kitchen knife which had been sharpened with an AccuSharp- with the laser. It makes little mustache hairs of light around the main reflection that are very obvious.
When it's a clean polish you just get two semicircular reflections on the wall behind the blade. If you're hitting the blade straight centered in the beam. Honestly, I haven't figured out the physics of WHY it makes semicircles and not just two dots. I'm guessing it's because of the convex shape of the edge and the angle the blade is held from perpendicular. When you get out to the tip it turns into a circle. I'm holding the blade at about a 45 degree angle in my lap, else I suspect it would reflect in a full circle halo effect at right angles to the edge. Which would intersect the beam with my eyeballs, not advisable.
Another way to use a laser to examine the edge is to lay the sword on a flat surface with the edge to be examined at a 90 degrees to that surface. Then holding the laser off to one side or the other, slide the beam along the edge. If you get laser light on both sides of the blade, you're splitting the beam and hitting the true edge of the blade. The near side of the blade to the beam will clearly reflect on the flat surface where there are any imperfections.
You know, I started out with this edge polishing with the Dremel tool because I thought your method of using a wooden block and sandpaper would take too long and be too much work. I probably never would have gone there if I had a belt sander suitable for this kind of application. It is a lot of work no matter which method, block or Dremel, you choose. The Dremel is more fun than just grinding the blade for hours on ever finer grits of sand paper that don't really want to stick to a wooden block. As my sword collection grows I can see the need for a decent belt sander in my future.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jul 3, 2012 2:40:03 GMT
you obviously know more about lasers than I do. I may have to study up some . . .
yep cutting empties is a real challenge. here's one of my proudest cutting moments
went through 100-ish bottles that day and only got like 4 of those and only the one on camera. that was my second of the day I think. I have since only gotten like 2 more silent cuts on empties. it is very hard to do.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jul 3, 2012 5:41:50 GMT
Well, it's also important to keep in mind a sword's intended purpose. It's not cutting bottles, or tatami. And plastic bottles can be notoriously fickle as a gauge of effectiveness. On one hand, the kind gallon water, milk or laundry detergent come in can be too easy, with even unsharpened rapiers working (and a butter knife would). But, though I know I sound like a broken record, 2L pop bottles, gatorade bottles, etc. can give false negatives; not false positives, every sword (or weapon) I've ever tried that can cut 2L bottles or tatami cuts meat/bone, but some that cut the latter perfectly don't work well on the former. A perfect example is the 2001 AT I just put up for sale that I hate to part with. Ironic but true, it's an early Atrim that first opened my eyes to the fact that mountains are being made out of molehills because of backyard cutting. All because I didn't just assume it was bad for batting 2L's and tested it on deer haunch and it cleaved right through effortlessly. Remember what swords are for. Sure, some swords won't go through a torso quite like a "razor" sharp katana, but perfect torso cuts aren't that common in a martial context; and the swords that don't cut "as well" but still cut as well as they would ever need to trade that off for great thrusting ability. (That was the first thing that had me not disparage the Atrim Swedish; if nothing else, I figured, I'd gotten one hell of a good "estoc." ) In a swordfight, the most likely cuts always would be to head, neck, or limbs. And there it's all distinction without a difference. The ability to go through two or three torsos is overkill when you already take off an arm either way. Not to mention that even a "dull" sword can do considerable damage. There are of course the cases of first Hank Reinhardt then the ARMA guys doing just fine on tatami with dull swords with even halfway decent blade geometry. Does it really matter if a head is cleanly severed or death is instantaneous from a half-severed and broken neck? Or if an arm is torn off at the elbow rather than "cut?" Or a skull caved in instead of sliced through? All of which I don't bring up intending to be gruesome. But we hobbyists, IMO, make distinctions that historical swordsmen would rarely have bothered with. That's why you don't see writings agonizing over the things we tend to agonize over. Some of us have pondered at times over the relative paucity of text talking about cutting practice. Why? Because, on actual historical targets--physiological ones--cutting isn't that hard with any decent sword. It's almost frighteningly easy. (And even a "bad" and "overbuilt" sword like some people think of with, say, a Darksword, would maim or kill on an unarmored body by way of blunt force trauma. Hey, I've spent almost thirty years going back and forth between medical research and being a physiology instructor--take it from me, there's no way in hell I'd ever stand in front of one climing it's not effective and let anyone hit me with it!) I just know that, if I have concerns over sharpness--on the rare occasions I have had that concern--I bother to test it on a cut or two of meat. If it cuts right through easily, as with the Atrim Swedish or Gen2, but bats certain kinds of bottles, I still don't mess with the sword. It's demonstrably lethal, so why? I just use the lighter bottles. Maybe for some of you the craftsmanlike exercise of going over the edge meticulously is enjoyable and relaxing. Hey, that's cool. It's just not for me. Choice I can appreciate, it just shouldn't be confused with necessity.
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Post by CloaknDagr on Jul 3, 2012 6:48:13 GMT
All of which is also very handy to know and thanks for the info.
I've seen TomK's videos on sharpening and seen a lot of backyard cutting videos. I want the sword to perform like a weapon, I'm not so interested in it cutting bottles though it is a kind of neat trick to get the idea of blade angle and such down properly. It would seem to me that without the proper angle of attack from the blade (thinking in airfoil terms now) that the efficiency of the cutting stroke would be hindered.
I'm not "put off" by gruesomeness. I'm a former Marine and I've seen gruesome IRL so the idea doesn't bother me a lot. It's simply what a sword does, the manner in which it is effectively employed is going to be a bit gruesome no matter how you look at it.
There ARE places I can take my sword where I can't take a firearm. Naturally given the choice for personal defense I'd go with my trusty .45 and high performance ammo but that isn't always an option. Like for instance in National Parks and such places where firearms are banned. I HATE to be unarmed, it's a phobia of mine. One reason among many I decided to take up swordsmanship. So I'm thinking I'll toss the sword in the back of my SUV and leave it there, in easy reach but quietly and unobtrusively at the ready should the need arise. I don't anticipate that the need WILL arise, I just don't like the idea of dying or being maimed while standing there with empty hands and a stupid look on my face.
I often go out to camp in a National Park. Because I live in a city with a LOT of light pollution the best place for me to practice my amateur astronomy is a National Park a couple of hours from here. I could go out to BLM lands too, but there's no water, showers, or anything else out there, where I go isn't very far from Death Valley. I always go alone and there are no Rangers out there either, but there are meth labs and being alone in that wilderness isn't a real smart move. Even without the meth lab factor, a vehicle malfunction or a fall (there are open mine shafts everywhere) could be fatal so I stick to the National Park. I'll put my sword in the back of my SUV along with my telescope and camping gear the next time I head out there.
So from my perspective, a sword is a REAL weapon that can really be used in personal combat, should the need arise. Most handgun combat occurs within a range where a sword would also be useful, especially if the bad guys don't know you have it until it's too late...
Information like yours goes a long way towards providing me with some peace of mind in that regard. I don't think it likely that I'm going to have a chunk of meat to practice on, I just cannot afford to buy something like that to hack to bits and I'd feel terrible wasting food doing that (thanks, Mom, for all the harping about things "dying in vain" because I didn't want to finish my supper).
I really hope I never have to use it on a live target, animal or human. But the knowledge that people like you are willing to share makes me feel much more confident in the ability of the weapon without actually having to slice something made of meat in earnest.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jul 3, 2012 7:27:50 GMT
Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting (unless you have the wherewithal and want to) cutting on meat all the time. If a few test cuts establish all you need to know, then just use light targets like milk and water jugs from then on. That's what I do. There was a time when I had a nearly unlimited amount of deer, as my neighbor worked for the Minnesota DNR picking up roadkill, but that was many years ago. And no, I don't eat enough meat to be able to afford to use it regularly either! It's just a worthwhile test if you need it, and you need never let it go to waste. If you hang it for cutting, wipe down your sword with alcohol to clean off oil and make sure it's dry beforehand, and put a clean tarp underneath--then have a nice barbeque!
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jul 3, 2012 7:35:25 GMT
Here's a couple of the ARMA vids btw. Some people might argue that Clements is horsing the cut, but hey, still ... what do you think would happen if that contacted actual flesh and bone?
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jul 3, 2012 8:02:23 GMT
you are absolutely right that a sword's purpose isn't to cut bottles or tatami, but it isn't to cut deer haunches or dead flesh either. you could grind out a really ugly cleaver of a sword with no distal taper and a thick heavy blade, heat treat it, sharpen it, and put a grip on it and it would cut through flesh with great effectiveness. but you see, the purpose of the sword was not solely to cut flesh since a knife, or axe or many other things could do it as well as the sword. no, the reason we have swords and the purpose of the sword is to be an effective DELIVERY SYSTEM for the cutting edge. sharpness is important to some degree but exactly as you mentioned it is by far not the most important since a dull or even blunt blade can be lethal pretty easily. nope, a sword is a weapon for killing people; it is designed purposely to allow the swordsman to get his weapon into his opponent while offering him a means to thwart his opponent's attacks. I for one expect to never harm a human with a sword, so why should I have one or indeed the many that I do have? because I like them. I suspect this is the answer for most of us here. however, at least I sure hope, none of use think cutting up people is fun. so what's a sword lover to do? find something else to cut and fantasize about defending the honor of the fair maid, or defeating the bandit ambush, or the wicked Saracen (or vile infidel Crusader), or struggling for your life against the invading Mongol horde (or conquering new lands along side your Mongol brethren), or simply to enjoy the movement, the fluidity, and inherent grace in the moves of swordsmanship. there are a thousand, thousand reasons why we should want to enjoy it, but we don't cut people, most of us cannot afford to cut meat or tatami mats. most of us cut bottle because they are convenient. we still want to have fun, we want to make that perfect cut, point at it and say "how do you like that!"
yes, swords don't need to be super sharp to be functional in their originally intended purpose but given our modern circumstances a sword that is SHARP is more fun. and that's the real deal right there. I love historical swordsmanship and practice it any chance I get but I like to have fun cutting too. I don't NEED them sharp, I just like them that way.
or if you really must have a purpose for cutting bottles then consider this: when one practices something with real seriousness, one tends to break the thing down into its simplest components and practice each of those components to perfection so the can be re-assembled later when the whole skill is needed or desired. yes bottles can and will give false negative, but the sharper your sword the less likely it is to happen. I don't care how sharp it is, if you slap it with the flat it ain't gonna cut well.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jul 3, 2012 8:11:11 GMT
One could say that he was 'horsing' the cut, but then again, his form remains good, his eyes never leave the target, and his strike ends with him in an arguably defensible position sword and body wise. He is only a small shift away from an Alber guard, and his feet are placed for maneuver. If the blow had landed, the opponent would in all likelyhood either be incapacitated or set back at the least. Assuming one was afforded an opening to employ an Oberhau, and ramp up the power like he did, it would in all likelyhood be a finishing move to an injured opponent, so as to not leave oneself open to a counter from an uninjured opponent.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jul 3, 2012 8:51:57 GMT
Don't get me wrong-- I don't in any way think he's horsing the cut! I actually used to be in ARMA and am totally behind their training philosophy--including and especially the need to go full speed--and think his form is excellent here, for all the reasons you specify. Nevertheless I was anticipating that when many people in the sword community see cuts delivered with such power they, in my mind mistakenly, consider it "wrong." And since these vids were demonstrating the lethality of even a "blunt" sword, just didn't want anyone saying, "well, sure, but just because he's swinging too hard." (Which, even if it were true--which it's not--is irrelevant. It's freakin' lethal! )
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Post by chuckinohio on Jul 3, 2012 8:59:16 GMT
We're on the same page.
I used the subjective "One could say" meaning "They could say" or "someone could say" not meaning to infer that you were of that mindset.
Swinging too hard??? :? The interweb naysayers can hug a big one. Whats too hard of a swing, when you can maintain good form, recover, and defend?
I'd call those videos impressive displays, nothing more, nothing less.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jul 3, 2012 9:50:42 GMT
No, but these approximate what the intended purpose is, infinitely better than bottles or, yes, tatami. Like I said, I work in medical research. There's a reason certain animal models are accepted by the FDA, and for example a pig model is used to approximate all sorts of trauma analogous to human trauma. They are considered authentic. (Try running plastic bottles or tatami past the FDA!)
Which knives, axes, polearms, etc. were as well. So effectively, in fact, that they were used in many, if not most situations, in preference to the sword. Where you (as well as I admit most people in the "sword community," alas, as per its name) differ from me is I don't subscribe to the same level of romanticism about the sword. In fact, to be frank, while I like my swords and find them viable and respectable weapons, I find an over-romanticism about the sword prissy and elitist.
You know, though swords were certainly welcome among the armament when Europeans came to the New World (or into colonial Africa, for example), why weren't all the manifests brimming with "send us swords--they are the wonder weapon!"? Because they aren't a wonder weapon. Not even when firearms were single shot and slow to load and not wonder weapons yet either. Because other delivery systems for the cutting or piercing edge were just as effective hand to hand, or the bludgeoning edge just as effective, all in all.
Even when swords graduated from super-rare pieces only the extreme elite could afford to much more mass produced weapons, all the agonizing over the "intricacies" of making them, all the aspects of "harmonic balance" and "distal taper" and all the rest, continued to make an upscale weapon. A still comparably more expensive weapon. But a massively better weapon? Please. If that were true those with swords would have swept conquest of the non-sword world. Exactly as they did once actually superior weapons--like artillery and repeating firearms--were brought to bear. (Even then requiring the huge helping hand of disease, and stalling in places like Africa where natives were not decimated by it.)
OK, then, you might say, but we're not saying they are. We're into them for the "grace" and "fluidity" and sense of "honor" associated with them. And my reply is simple. I find all that talk pretentious. I find no such grace in the sword.
No, not because I'm simply all concerned with "cutting up people" and love to dwell on grotesque and sadistic, with no sense of or interest in philosophy. (Not any more than because I'm "cheap.") I do it for the same reason Musashi fought with his "crude" and "simple" suburito. To not succumb to romanticism, snobbery, elitism; the fetishization of inanimate objects, "idolatry."
So yes, I'm a pragmatist. A sword, to me, is just a sword. Not because I'm not philosophical. Because I am.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 3, 2012 12:42:21 GMT
Musashi used that suburito as a tactic, thats all.It was not intended as a statement.
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Post by CloaknDagr on Jul 3, 2012 19:39:03 GMT
Interesting discussion this turned into, having very little to do with my conundrum of a sharp sword not feeling sharp. Which, as it turns out is a normal state for a highly polished blade.
Funny how internet forums tend to polarize opinions, or if not polarize them at least allow the polarity to shine through.
I'm an IT engineer with 30 years of in the business, I see this on computer forums all the time. I have built my own computers because I can't buy what I want, or if I bought it it would be unnecessarily expensive compared to building it myself. So I have had a lot of experience on internet forums relating to things regarding custom built computers.
Generally, the forums in that scope are very helpful, I can help someone else or they can help me and the range of expertise covers the gamut from novice to grizzled old hardware experts. There, I'm the grizzled old veteran, here in this sword forum I'm the novice.
But I notice this same polarity phenomenon wherever and whatever the topic. Some people like to share their knowledge and some people like to show off their knowledge. There IS a difference. I was really hoping talking to "sword people" that there would be a minimum of the latter, and so there has been for the larger part.
I began this thread because I needed to know something, which many of you have graciously addressed. I'm grateful for that.
Why did I bring up the computer stuff just now? To make this point. In my world of computer hardware and expertise there are two very distinct groups of people. There are the people who NEED computer hardware to meet certain specs for the performance they desire to accomplish a given task or tasks. Most of you would probably consider the computer I'm typing this from as some kind of monster; it's running an octo-core processor with 32GB of RAM, has 15 hard drives (last time I counted), 3 video cards, 5 monitors, liquid cooled, a dozen or more fans, etc. It runs my house, it has tendrils all over the place via networked nodes, infrared transceivers, 16 security cameras, and a lot more. I'm not trying to brag about my computer, just let you know what some people use computers for. My computer is an integral tool in my life and livelihood.
The other group of "enthusiasts" is the gamers. Gamers build high powered computers solely for computer gaming, every other consideration is secondary, tertiary or even lower priority. Gamers can be real snobs about hardware. If I post the specs to my system on one of those forums the gamers will ALWAYS tell me that "You don't need all that crap" when in fact all this crap is exactly what I need or else I would not have gone to the trouble and expense to create a custom system with these exact specifications and characteristics. Gamers consider themselves the "elite purists" of computer performance. Gamers build very expensive toys where the rest of us use our hardware as tools.
The funny thing is, all of us tool users do not have any problem with the toy builders, we understand their enthusiasm it's just that our priorities are different. However, the reverse is seldom true, the toy builders do NOT generally speaking see the perspective of the tool users and so drop snide, smarmy, and largely unworthy drek into the conversation for no other purpose than to deride someone elses knowledge OR to boast about their own. I'm not talking about honest misunderstandings and disagreements on point of view, obviously I'm talking about a form of elitism.
Seeing that happening here also, I would sincerely encourage everyone to respect the simple fact that not everyone is going to use the same tool (or the same toy) the same way. Everyone has their own reasons for what they do which is sufficient unto that person. There's nothing wrong with that. No one is more "noble" than someone else by reason of erudition, it's the attitude that makes a person noble not how many facts he can spew to prove how clever he is. It is noble to admit there are things you don't know, even if you know a lot. It is noble to never take that sniping shot at someone else who does not merit it and will never know you refrained from the cut-down or the brag. It is noble to try to understand what the other person is talking about rather than simply look for openings to show off what you know. There are none of us so damn smart and knowledgeable that he can't benefit from the experience and perspective of others.
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