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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2012 0:54:39 GMT
So I'm a beginner and I finally decided on my first Katana, a Kris Cutlery 26II. I really wanted the black ito version but after contacting KC, Cecil said that their new upcoming stock would not include a bo-hi version in black, just no-hi in black. So if I got the bo-hi KC 26II in brown or blue, how hard would it be to change the ito myself to black? Could I just dye the ito black and rewrap it?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 16, 2012 1:04:28 GMT
Re-wrapping the handle is a bit of a pain, but a very valuable skill to foster. if you choose to do it yourself, here is one of the best guides you'll find on the subject, written by our own frankthebunny. He is an immensely talented customizer, so if you decide to get it wrapped by somebody else he is a great guy to work with. He also does work with dye, and has had great success with it. His tsuka-maki guide. forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6825His site. cottontailcustoms.com/Forum member SwordLord is also amazingly talented, his rates are great and he is a pleasure to deal with. I have a tsuka wrapped by him and it is just incredible. forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=158Good quality ito can be had from several sites in a variety of materials. Silk and cotton are the most prevalent. Here are a few great places to find it. Japanese Swords LTD. Namikawa Heibei Co. LTD. Swordnarmory.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2012 1:29:48 GMT
Thank you adrian.. It was almost a deal breaker for me to not get the color Katana I want but never really thought about customizing it to my liking. From what I've been reading the KC 5160 blades are great and have a nice amount of Niku and strong fittings. So the ito color should be the least of my deciding factors. Thanks for the links, I'll have a fun time learning a new skill of ito wrapping.
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Post by ineffableone on Jun 16, 2012 1:34:11 GMT
The most difficult part to get right is the final knots. It might be worth while to make a dumbie tsuka to practice on. Wrap it a few times to get a feel for it.
Over all it is not overly difficult but does take a bit of patience and skill as well as some good preparation. One thing you might also consider is quality of materials. Cheap ito will come out with more poorly done wrapping due to the quality of the ito no matter your own personal skills.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 16, 2012 1:40:02 GMT
I have a 26III and it's awesome. I had a great time painting the saya, though it was a difficult undertaking. One real positive of the KC katana is that it is set up for customization right off the bat.
Ineffibleone is right, too. The prices on the sites I mentioned are low, but aren't necessarily the cheapest. Their products are good quality, though. Super cheap ito is terrible to work with and will often snap, leaving you high and dry. Even if you pull off a great wrap, it will wear out much faster too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2012 2:26:20 GMT
When I spoke to Cecil from KC he said the new upcoming stock of Kats do not include a 26II bo-hi in black but he suggested I dye the brown or blue (depending which I buy) ito to black. I believe the ito that with the KC26 is s chemical synthetic fiber blend or something? Is that ito of good quality that I should just dye it and use it? Or would buying black ito new be better?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 16, 2012 2:59:03 GMT
I personally like the ito it comes with. It's synthetic, but is not bad quality. You'd have to be careful taking it off, though. You could use a needle or a some pliers to undo the knot. if you cut it, you will be left with insufficient ito to re-wrap it.
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Post by ineffableone on Jun 16, 2012 3:01:00 GMT
One problem is would you be dying it on the tsuka? If not if your thinking of removing the ito dying then trying to put it back on, well that can be difficult. The final knots usually need a bit of extra material to be able to do them well, if your a beginner and have not had experience it could be a nightmare to try and reuse the same ito.
Dying ito also means you will probably have it bleed dye while your sweaty palms grip it. So you will probably get black on your hands when using it. Dye rarely goes in and stays locked in, it tends to bleed for awhile after you dye.
I would suggest buying some new ito, it will make it easier for you to re wrap being it wont have all the kninks and folds from already being wraped previously. Also you wont have to worry about bleeding dyes.
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Post by johnwalter on Jun 16, 2012 3:11:52 GMT
Hes right,its a pain reusing ito if you are new to it.Better off to buy some new ito and use the original stuff to practice with on the same tsuka before rewrapping it with the new ito. I have a KC 29II,great kat. I can also second the quality of both frankthebunny and Swordlords work personally.Outstanding.
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Post by frankthebunny on Jun 16, 2012 5:07:03 GMT
Hi there Brian, the ito on the stock KC is indeed a chemical fiber and will not dye in any conventional way. there are a couple of reasons you shouldn't attempt to reuse the ito. one, as has been mentioned above, you need at least a little extra length when executing the end knots and two, since it is synthetic, it will be very difficult to flatten out once you remove it as it tends to stay twisted and this can make it even more frustrating to re-wrap. you can find good quality silk, leather or tsunami ito via the links already provided for about $12 a meter (on average) of which you will need about 4 meters for a new wrap. cotton is (a little) less expensive than these even for the good Japanese imported stuff (from most vendors) but if you just want a plain and functional wrap, you could get some very cheap shoelace type cotton ito off ebay for a few bucks although again, for reasons already stated you might want to spend the extra cash. to get a good wrap done where it's tight and will last a long time is not that difficult. the wrap on the KC is without hishigami (paper triangles under the folds) and not too pretty but is tight as a drum and won't come undone anytime soon. to get a properly done wrap that looks and feels nice takes some more practice so if you're up to it, practice with what you have before spending a lot and you'll eventually be happy with your results. if you get stuck or just don't want to be bothered I can hook you up but it is something a practitioner and/or collector should know how to do anyway imho. good luck and welcome to SBG Thanks Adrian and John for the links and props
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2012 21:40:44 GMT
Thanks again (to everyone) for all the advice. Given the problems that I can encounter by attempting to unwrap, dye, and re-wrap synthetic ito, I find it odd that it was even suggested as an option from Cecil. He struck me as a man who everyone that experiences KC's customer service praises for exemplary service. I'll just buy some new decent quality ito from one of the provided links when the time comes instead.
I have another question since some of you guys here have experienced the KC26/29 and I already have you in here. I'm not sure if I need to start a new thread so forgive me by steering away slightly. Before I decided on the KC 26, I was strongly considering the DF Musha, Raptor, and Ronin Dojo Pro, which all seem like well received sub-300 beater swords. Although the KC26 is also sub $300, it sports a differentially hardened 5160 blade, and not through hardened like the others on my list. So my question is, would the KC blade still be able to hang in toughness and also be considered a beater sword? Or once you DH a blade it loses the ability to be placed in that category? I recall reading that the KC blades have a good amount of Niku (meat) in comparison to say a DF Musha for instance. Does that Niku compensate for a drawback (if I can even call it that, could be advantage?) of not being TH?
Since I'm new and I don't foresee myself collecting swords, I just want one (or two down the road... Haha . isn't that how it all starts?) that's well balanced, lively, strong, and won't break the bank. I'm really drawn in with the spring steel and bo-hi present. I thought it would be a plus to have a hamon, albeit straight and hard to see. Okay, I lied, MAYBE down the road I would like a Kat with a very prominent wild hamon with interesting activity, like the Hanwei Bamboo Mat.. But that's just me going on a tangent.. Thanks guys!
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 16, 2012 22:08:05 GMT
The KC is very tough. The polish isn't great, and 5160 shows a pretty poor hamon on top of that, so if you are looking for a nice hamon that is the wrong place. You can use an etchant to bring it out more.
It would be okay as a beater/cutter, as it has good balance, but in my estimation the Ronin cuts better. I have a Dojo, the 1045 version, and it is a blast to cut with.
The Dojo Pro's have great fittings and everything fits together very well. The 1060 steel is very tough. Both it and the DF have nice crisp lines and superb heat treatments, and make great cutters. They are also a bit heavier and the balance is more forward, making them feel more blade-heavy, but not cumbersome.
Since it is DH, the KC should hold its edge longer, and take a finer edge at that.
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Post by frankthebunny on Jun 16, 2012 22:42:29 GMT
in my opinion the through-hardened blades like the DF musha will take more of a beating with less chance of taking a set. the balance is a little tip heavy but that would really just aid in a powerful cut. if you were primarily doing kata I think you would like a more evenly balance sword like the KC but they can bend on a bad cut despite having decent niku. the softer spine of a differentially hardened blade is actually what allows the blade to escape breaking on a flub. this in turn could unfortunately result in a minor set which can be straightened out without too much trouble.
many newcomers to katana are under the impression that a traditionally made sword is near indestructible but for heavy beating and generous learning curve purposes I would suggest a 1060 through hardened blade. I've seen a musha do some terrible things to ridiculous targets and come out practically unaffected and I'm to understand the dojo pro is sporting a similar resume. once you feel you're at a more refined cutting level or you can resist the call of the hamon no longer, you can then snatch up a KC (with some vinegar) or a bamboo mat or many many other DH models
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