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Post by THE_SUPERWEIRDO on Apr 23, 2012 2:51:57 GMT
When I was just scrolling through the Kult Of Athena site, I encountered this picture: I was surprised to see such a blade, and a bit confused. What I want to know is what the heck is this sword even called? And does it even exist in the first place? If it does, I'm wondering where you can get such a sword. I would get this kind of sword than a medieval depending on the price. :mrgreen:
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 23, 2012 3:40:40 GMT
It is a Ken, the precursor to the tachi. Back when Japan sucked at sword making they started getting swords (ken) from China and Korean, and then started bringing smiths from those countries. While the duel edged swords were pretty much out of fad in China and Korea Japan fell in love with them and started making them. Slowly the Japanese learned what the Koreans and Chinese had already, and started moving toward single edged swords, and a while latter you get the distinctive katana shape we all know. A little condensed and simplified but basically the story.
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Post by THE_SUPERWEIRDO on Apr 23, 2012 3:45:11 GMT
Ah, I see. And I'm guessing there are not that much in the market these days right? It seems like a very unique Japanese sword.
EDIT: I researched and found that it's also called a Tsurugi. I think...
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Post by Sporkmaker on Apr 23, 2012 3:46:41 GMT
Straight double edged Japanese swords are called ken. It's an older design that predates the curved tachi and katana which were generally considered superior for combat, though ken continued to be used for religious ceremonies and were often carved as horimono designs on katana blades as a symbol of purity......Edit: I see someone already beat me to it
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 23, 2012 3:54:04 GMT
Basically it is a jian with a Japanese style handle. There are a few places that make them, United Black has one a few others, but mostly they are marketed to the inexperienced as novel Japanese style for low cost.
You would probably be better off asking a jian maker like Garret from Jin Shi to make a jian with a tsuka handle than to try and find a decent production version.
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 23, 2012 4:01:21 GMT
If I am not mistaken Hua wei also made a ken, so you could probably get a decent one from them too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 6:31:27 GMT
Slight correction, they were generally considered superior for combat from horseback. They used these straight swords until the 8th century AD. Their method of warfare changed from foot to horseback, so out of necessity they had to change their swords to a form that worked better on horseback.
This was recognised historically in the west a very, very long time ago.
The ancient Greek historian, soldier, mercenary, philosopher Xenophon (430 – 354 BC) recommended a curved bladed makhaira over the straight, double-sided xiphos for cavalry use.
"I recommend a kopis rather than a xiphos, because from the height of a horse’s back the cut of a machaira will serve you better than the thrust of a xiphos." - Xenophon
The Japanese finally worked it out over a thousand years later...
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Post by masahiro560 on Apr 23, 2012 16:30:33 GMT
That's not a historically accurate ken The ken either had an integrated handle (common) Or had a tsuka that looked far from the present tsuka design of tsuka-ito and samegawa
Also the blade profile is all wrong, a ken would have a pronounced tip, although it is a slight change in the width it is still noticeable.
The legend goes that amakuni forged the first tachi since many of the emperor's warriors came back with broken swords (Most probably chokuto and ken) And came out with a curved sword design that incorporated a hamon on a nihonto (I find this doubtful as one chokuto that i recall had a hamon on it)
The warriors returned possibly on horseback with all the swords not broken I'd take it that they were defeated the first time because of their swords and the next time they won due to the new design of their swords which is curved. And this is why the tachi was longer than katana and uchigatana, mainly because they were usually expected to be used on horseback which needed a longer reach
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Post by tullfan81 on Apr 23, 2012 16:44:11 GMT
ok, aside from KoA, where can I buy a more useable one of these?
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Post by THE_SUPERWEIRDO on Apr 23, 2012 23:06:07 GMT
Man, getting another custom is not my first choice, already waiting for one. :? I just want something to ease the impatient-ness and a "ken" is really unique.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 5:07:54 GMT
There are a number of this type of sword vendors out there. Plenty are available on ebay today, right now. Sheng, of St-nihonto , st-swords, ninja katana, ts trading, etc., etc., etc.,, has some of a similar style though slightly different. His are kissaki moroha with a straight blade instead of a curve. www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-made-Clay- ... 3372b5dc2d Shinwa is another vendor with several vaiants. KOA is sold out and unavailable. What you see is a United Black/United Cutlery offering in 1045 steel. They're sold out most Places. What's left is the folded steel (labeled as damascus) version. Model name is ikazuchi= thunder. Supposed to be well balanced, agile and quick. What masahiro 560 says...I second. These variants are fantasy blades not true ken nor anything historically backed. The tsuba and fittings (zinc) are tribal designs. Hope this helps Steve
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 24, 2012 5:36:31 GMT
Here is an example of the Hua wei ken
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Post by etiennehamel on Apr 24, 2012 16:24:46 GMT
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Post by THE_SUPERWEIRDO on Apr 24, 2012 21:42:25 GMT
In my personal taste, I would prefer the "Fantasy" Ken than the historical Ken. I actually like the idea of a Jain blade with a tsuka.
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Post by CJ Hawke on Apr 27, 2012 5:39:29 GMT
As an extremely happy owner of one, I completely agree. I love the feel of the leather ito. I'm a non traditionalist by nature so the "uniqueness" of this sword only makes it even more desireable, imho. The only downside I see so far is in customizing the fittings. I have yet to find either tsubas or habaki to match the blade's flat diamond geometry. It handles quite well one handed, light and snake quick even in my poorly trained hands.
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Post by Hackenslash on Apr 28, 2012 22:24:22 GMT
It depends on the type of cavalry. Lighter cavalry, in most cultures tended towards curved weapons. Heavier cavalry tended towards straighter weapons. The Samurai began as light cavalry fighting emishi insurgents.
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 29, 2012 7:10:07 GMT
While the Buddhist temple ken swords are still around, I don't think they were the only type of ken. Just the ones that were best preserved. The ken also saw use as swords in the palace as formal court sword, and probably saw use as swords for the higher ranking military. I think the fittings on these were more likely to be more functional than the Buddhist temple swords. I would guess they looked a lot like the chokuto fitting. Chokuto and ken existed side by side for awhile and I would suspect they had similar fittings, and handles. Some examples of Chokuto fittings Here is some examples of kofun era pommels and fittings Here is a Ken dated back to the Shinto era from sabakusamurai.com/collection/collectionsword.htmLooks a lot like a jian handle So most likely early functional ken had ring pommel, like these Japanese Ring pommel examples from the Tokyo Museum dated to the kofun era While yes the ken had the distinctive Buddhist temple look that etiennehamel and masahiro560 talk about, I think there was more to them than just those. I would guess that little of the early court and functional ken did not survive due to the need to recycle the metal into newer swords. Back at that time they were importing much of their iron from China and Korea, so the metal was quite valuable. It is likely many of the older swords were reforged many times, becoming newer and newer swords. This is just my own speculation and I haven't seen authentic antique ken from that era, but I have read how ken were not just temple swords. and the picture etiennehamel is a temple sword. From knowing that the ken evolved from Korean and Chinese swords that were brought over, and that the original versions the Japanese made were duplicates of the Korean and Chinese blades makes me suspect there were other looks to the ken than the temple sword style.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 9:20:05 GMT
the blade on that one reminds me of the description of Brisingr from the Inheritance cycle
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