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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 9, 2012 9:26:29 GMT
Im having some level of doubt that the use of that powder ball in my China-made katana cleaning kit is a good idea.
Im thinking about switching to use of Talcum powder.
At some point in this last generation what we used to call "talcum powder" (Whatever that stuff was made of) has been replaced with "corn starch" that is in a fine dust form.
From what I have been reading, the use of the modern talcum powder (corn starch dust) can not scratch steel.
If this is wrong, please let me know...
But what I have been reading, the powder balls in the cleaning kits we get from China are well known to be able to scratch steel sometimes, and this is because no one actually can tell me what is in my cleaning kit's powder ball.
Oh they can tell me what the real stuff in Japan is made out of. But that real stuff sells for a lot more money than what I spent on my $12 buck kit.
As for what is in the totally unregulated, and free of any form of Governmental oversight cleaning kit I got? These kits produced by the lowest bidder in China and Korea, and aimed at being sold to Americans that dont know any better?
God only knows.....
Therefore, Im leaning to the use of Talcum powder at this point......
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 9, 2012 10:49:08 GMT
Most likely if it is not true uchiko powder in the ball then it is talc powder, which is the common cheap replacement.
Authentic uchiko powder is the remnants of the final polishing finger stones used to polish katana all crushed up into a fine powder. It should scratch and be slightly abrasive, just very very minutely. If it is scratching so much you can see it, then it is something besides uchiko powder.
Real uchiko powder is sadly not the easiest to find in these kits, and most have talc instead. I think Fred Lohman and some others advertise actual uchiko powder for theirs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 10:50:26 GMT
Ah, just beat me to the post!
Realistically speaking you don't need powders or powder balls of any sort. The powder balls are just a light abrasive, used to remove corrosion from the blade, which was a problem when the early Japanese used vegetable based oils, which would break down and oxidize the blade, and would gum up and need to be removed frequently.
There's no need to buff up the blade if it doesn't need it, just wipe it down with a light machine oil and it will be fine. If it gets scratched, then you can use any modern abrasive of the correct grit size to polish out the scratches out. Anything from metal polish to very fine grades of wet and dry abrasive paper, depending on the scratches.
I keep my powder ball kits as ornamental pieces, they look nice next to a sword display, but do it all with modern abrasives and oils.
Talcum powder is made from powdered talc, which is the softest mineral. Both talc and cornstarch are too soft to be useful in getting corrosion or oxidation (rusting) off a blade. The stuff in the powder balls is actually a crushed up Japanese whetstone of sorts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 10:53:51 GMT
Oh yeah, and the stuff in the Chinese powder balls is real abrasive, try it out on a bit of old copper, you see it will work. Basically, powdered abrasive stone is cheap, it's what gets left over when they quarry and cut natural abrasive stones, and where the offcuts go. Japanese anything will cost a premium, they do that with all their stuff, part is quality, part is just being exclusive...
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 9, 2012 10:56:12 GMT
As for an alternative to your questionable powder ball, use rubbing alcohol instead, works great! Cheap to buy easy to find, you probably already have some, just make sure you use a nice soft cloth to wipe with it.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Apr 9, 2012 18:48:29 GMT
Rubbing alcohol works great, just be sure to use 91% or higher. Lower percentages contain more water and could cause rust if not completely removed.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 14, 2012 22:01:12 GMT
Today i tried the use of GOLD BOND ULTIMATE, talc-free body powder...
While I guess it worked like a charm, there is a real problem with attempting to use this from the normal sprinkle bottle.....
It makes a HUGE MESS of everything!
While I may no longer trust the stuff sold in the sword kit powder ball, it's hard to find fault with the way it is used.
I need to think of a different delivery system.....
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Apr 14, 2012 22:35:03 GMT
Another option that has been mentioned is Bon Ami powder. It does make a mess, though. Maybe you could find a way to untie the powder ball so you could refill it and tie it back off.
Maybe you could affix a tissue or two over the sprinkler on the bottle?
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 14, 2012 22:39:55 GMT
I think one of the main reasons that we all like to use the standard cleaning kit powder ball is, it's fun.
and, it dispenses the powder in the correct amount we want...
Im not sure if I opened up a kit's powder ball, dumped out whatever is in side it, filled it up again with corn starch body power it would still work.....
would it?
has anyone ever done this?....
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Post by Maynar on Apr 14, 2012 23:29:48 GMT
As Adrian and Ineffable One have said, rubbing alcohol works just fine. In this day and age, a traditional uchiko-type ball is not needed for proper sword maintenance. A soft cloth like an old T-shirt, a bottle of 99% rubbing alcohol, and a bottle of light mineral oil is all you need for regular maintenance. Forget about uchiko balls. Peace out.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 15, 2012 12:05:17 GMT
I believe one of the main reasons we use the powder ball is - "It's fun!"
There is just something very real about smacking the powder ball against the blade, seeing the clear result of a dusting of the blade, that gives the person the feeling that he is doing something.......and knows when he is done doing it.
The feed-back is fun to see.
also, and just as important, you can set up the powder ball before hand, use it with one hand, and do all this with a gentle flow to it. You can blend the use of the powder ball into the flow of how you clean and then oil the blade....there is no need to stop, put the sword down, and screw around with bottle caps and stuff.
So lets say that I wished to use your "Rubbing Alcohol" idea in the future. How do you do this and have it blend seamlessly into the over-all flow of cleaning and oiling the sword.
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Post by Maynar on Apr 15, 2012 14:51:39 GMT
Well I have used both methods and there is a certain "flow" to each. It would be in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.
I prefer the rubbing alcohol route because it uses no special tools. Just MHO.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 15, 2012 15:07:46 GMT
Well......as far as I know it's not going to flow well.
as far as i can see I have to stop everything, put down the sword, and start to fool around with the cap of the bottle of rubbing alcohol....I dont see this ending up to be a very good way to go at all,,,no flow....no grace.
So the problem I see is that you cant set things up a head of time because the alcohol will have dried up by the time I would get around to needing it.
lets back up and go over the way i would go about this: I prepare the cleaning cloths, the oil, the oil cloth....and lift my sword, bow, and begin to take it out of the saya. I look carefully at the blade as is. i check for problems...I check for the condition of rust. i check for what oil remains on the blade,,,and for sawdust from the saya.
I pick up the first cleaning cloth (It is dry) and I clean the blade a few times with it.
I again check the blade along it's length to see what there is to see.
NOW we would at this point reach for the powder ball......but in this case we now have to reach for the prepared wet cloth with the rubbing alcohol on it.......
Would you expect that by now we would still find the cloth wet? I dont.
Thus we need to come up with a way to prepare the cloth so as to not need to stop in the middle and fiddle around with bottle caps......
suggestions?
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Post by johnwalter on Apr 15, 2012 15:35:19 GMT
Seems like you are more interested in the routine than anything else.Rubbing alcohol is easier and cleans the blade betterI would suggest a real uchiko ball if this is your preference.
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Post by Maynar on Apr 16, 2012 4:30:04 GMT
I would, and I do. Try it and see for yourself. Be generous with the alcohol, it's cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2012 4:40:36 GMT
Get a spray can of gun oil and a piece of cotton rag (old t-shirt). Spray gun oil on cotton rag, wipe both sides, examine sword, resheath in saya. How's that for flow and simplicity - now that's real Zen!
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Post by ineffableone on Apr 16, 2012 5:02:07 GMT
You only need to change your routine and make the alcohol cleaning part of the first step. Which is general how I do it when I clean and oil my sword.
But as mentioned you seem more interested in the ritual than the cleaning. I don't bow or anything fancy. I pull out my material. Set them up to get to easily, unsheath my sword, apply alcohol to a rag, wipe clean my blade, examine it, wipe again if it needs it such as sap or glue from bottle labels etc. Put away the alcohol and examine the blade for damage now that there is a clean surface to examine. I now apply oil using an oil cloth. Then wipe excess off to keep a thin coating only. then resheath.
Or you can easily just open your bottle previous to beginning, an open bottle does not evaporate away much and you would not have to fiddle with the bottle cap.
The uchiko ball is designed to clean off the blade, remove oil, sap, dirt etc. Which is what the rubbing alcohol does too.
The steps you have before actually cleaning your blade are in essence are unnecessary until the blade is clean. You want a clean blade before you do anything to fix rust, edge damage, etc. So looking while the blade is dirty and still oiled only makes for ritual. inspecting for these details after it is clean is much more efficient use of time as this is the point that you can then do something about these issues.
As mentioned if you desire the ritual and want to keep it then it would be best to get the real uchiko ball. If you want to care for your sword in an efficient manner then alcohol is a very suitable substitute. You can work it into your ritual by uncapping the bottle when you set up, and starting with the rubbing the alcohol rag first before examinations begin, This will leave you with just the blade to see, instead of any build up that may be present.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 16, 2012 11:36:52 GMT
Yes, I am very, very interested in seeking a way to blend a way to clean the blade into the traditional manner as taught to me.
The problem is that I simply dont trust the stuff that is inside the powder balls that come in the normal cleaning kit. I have been doing some reading on the things, and while the real ones in Japan have a long history of use without problems, there is no clear answer what stuff is inside the modern cheap cleaning kits.
I have also run into statements about the use of the powder balls that leave me thinking now that they should not be used due to the very real and high chance they will cause scratches and other harm to the blade because they contain stuff that is a cheap knock-off of the real stuff.
Thus i would like to find a way, a system that allows for a more traditional order of cleaning the sword in a respectful way, yet does not make use of the kit's powder ball.
In other words.....I want to have some respectful flow to cleaning the sword, with no need to hurry-hurry , or without the need to stop, put the sword down, and play with a bottle cap.
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Post by lamebmx on Apr 16, 2012 14:17:19 GMT
Ummm, the cleaning balls are supposed to be used sparingly, for reasons previously cited. talc basically gunks up and dont do anything for the cleaning that the cloth itself dont do. here is my flow for example.
I keep a towel slightly damped with choji oil in a plastic case, next to this is my uchiko (the abrasive kind) & rice paper.
I have a scrap of jeans on top of a container of rubbing alcohol.
I have a cotton shirt scrap sitting next to the container.
99% of cleaning:
grab alcohol, squirt a healthy dose on jeans & set on table.
grab drying cloth and oil cloth and set next to alcohol.
remove sword and wipe down with alcohol jeans, jeans are nice cuz they help with any gunk that might have gotten on the blade.
use drying cloth to dry off alcohol and I check things out at this time.
couple quick passes with oil rag.
put sword back in saya, and put everything back.
For blades that have not been used in a long while (months), I do the choji clean. I give the powder a couple minutes on the blade to actually soak up any remaining oil. i actually wander outside for a smoke during this time. when i return I use the rice paper. it kind of accentuates the abrasive action removing anything that may be gummed up on there. remember this is a real light abrasive, you really need tons of applications and before pictures to see an effect. another perspective, I can see .5 micron polishing compound scratch the surface (good eyes when my stigmatism isnt acting up), so the cheap choji is most likely working the blade less that jewellers rouge would. Another thing to keep in mind is that, stone works slower and less abrasively than polishing compound.
As for the talc, you should be able to refill the ball with it. Just remember its not really doing to do much to help clean the blade. its particulate size, IIRC, is in the single digit microns but is just so abysmally weak it just desintergrates. So no harm no foul, just dont expect it to help clean some gunked up oil, but it will soak up some fresh oil.
oh, and rubbing alcohol on a soaked rag, really dont dry out that fast. The actual fabric that composes the powder ball is a filter which will keep any large particles from leaving the ball. Even the cheapest of the cheap powders is less abrasive than what gets cut by the sword. Lastly, I think the cheap uchiko's are basically crushed and filtered limestone, from the cheap stuff to the expensive stuff they will be more the same than different. This will be up to and and to some extent including the expensive ji-zuya & ha-zuya left overs. Fine stones in a powdered form are more the same the same than different, they all make a pretty fine scratch while breaking into smaller pieces make a smaller scratch, and with fine stones, barely any of this is even visible.
Another option would be to purchase a fine polishing stone and crush it yourself. hammer to small chunks then mortar and pestal until its a fine powder, throw it in the ball. Just beware that the cost of actually knowing whats in the ball is going to be well over what your sword cost.
This tested Japanese natural finishing stone (Hon-yama) is a Nakayama (quarry) Kiita (yellow) razor stone. Yellow stones are called Ki-ita, blue stones are called Asagi. This one has the orange peel rind that is desirable for a collectors stone. It is a large stone with much character 3.5”W X 7”L X 1.25”H. <--- $325, and thats a bargain $500 for a similar sized asagi. Both of them appear to have about 1/8" usable thickness before you are into the backing bedrock of them. These aint the blue/yellow belguim stones either, the backing is pretty much unusable (that I am aware of)
I saw a asagi sliver, triangle 3" base x 5" long 1/4" thick super pure, like 1 inclusion in the whole thing. it was for sale for over $700
These would all be uchigumori-do & ha-zuya ji-zuya level stones.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 17, 2012 0:35:15 GMT
lamebmx...I will work on this system of yours this weekend to see what i can come up with using it as a guide
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