Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 0:23:20 GMT
Hey everyone, I bought a Cheness O-katana for christmas (little self gifting ) and have been super happy with it, cuts like a razor, and used it to take down a rogue aspen tree (trunk was about 4 inches across) in one hit yesterday, and that part of the edge still slices cleanly through paper, with no damadge to boot. Sure the fittings are plain, and the pseudo hamon isn't amazing, but its strong and get the job done. So the question is, what is up with the bad rep for Cheness?
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Mar 31, 2012 0:35:51 GMT
I would hardly say, if ya browse this site, they have a bad rep.. They have had some problems with QC in the past and roughly the now period, but it seems to be getting less and less thus as time goes on. I'm not a japanese sword or chinese sword enthusiast, but that is what i've read here and there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 0:36:51 GMT
I don't really recall them having a better reputation, it just seems that there are better options now within their price range and the quality control is a bit lax compared to what it used to be (based purely on what I've heard). If you're enjoying yours then I don't see a problem, though cutting through a four-inch tree seems just a bit abusive. I'm not trying to be patronizing or derail the topic but you should be extremely careful if you're going to abuse your blade like that, because it can and will eventually cause some sort of failure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 0:56:12 GMT
I know , but I had to test it out like that once. ( It's primary role is a little back up weapon if for some reason my baseball bat with screws in it fails to do the job. Ahh who am I kidding this is a much better weapon. :twisted:
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 31, 2012 0:58:45 GMT
When Cheness first came out, they were the best affordable katana. But since then, other companies have offered the same quality of swords for slightly less in price. Not only that, Cheness competitors have out-competed Cheness in term of fit-and-finish. Take a look at Hanwei Raptor, they look so much better than Cheness.
Cheness QC is also poor, particularly in the number of crack tsuka. Dynasty Forge used to have to the same problem, but DF took step to remedy it. DF now has uniform tang size, hence eliminated the crack tsuka problem.
This is a situation where Cheness is standing still, while others have moved forward. In a way, I am surprised. Cheness only have to do a few things to stay as the industry leader; but for some strange reason, they did nothing -- no improvement, no attempt to keep up with competitors.
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Post by Toast on Mar 31, 2012 3:01:46 GMT
I don't believe Cheness has a bad reputation. I own several Cheness katana and I have been very satisified with them. I think they are very durable swords. Some people have voiced quality control issues with a Cheness purchase, but these incidents are usually resolved when purchased through a reputable vendor. The first Cheness Tenchi that I purchased had a minor cosmetic flaw, and I exchanged it with the vendor without any problems whatsoever. To be fair, I've also experienced random issues with other katana manufacturers as well. Personally, I highly prefer the very plain and rugged fittings on Cheness katana. Others have noted that competing manufacturers offer more decorative fittings in the same price range, but I actively look for plain, utilitarian fittings.
For a long time, Hanwei pretty much dominated the katana market. Their prices were very good and so was the quality. Months ago, Hanwei's factory allegedly burned to the ground. As their stock dried-up, the prices skyrocketed. For this reason, I will probably never purchase another Hanwei katana ever again. The katana market is somewhat in a state of flux right now. With Hanwei's reduced presence, I have noticed that Musashi has greatly enhanced their offerings. Additionally, I also read that one major vendor stated they will no longer carry Cheness, because Cheness has decided to primarily concentrate on direct sales to customers. Hopefully, this may very well help to eliminate those "quality control" issues some people have experienced. If Musashi and Cheness play their cards right, they may very well dominate the $300.00 modern production sword market.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Mar 31, 2012 3:10:47 GMT
Howdy. I actually made a poll asking how people would rate their Cheness products. The majority were satisfied with them, and had I not hampered the participants with only two votes(for whatever reason I did not think to allow for people who had several products. Pure brain shart on my end.) it would have read even better. I do however agree strongly that while other companies have worked to improve their offerings, Cheness has remained fairly static. My Kaze was my first sword and I still love it, thus I hope that Cheness is able to pull through and regain the luster that they may have lost due to QC issues/lack of development.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Mar 31, 2012 3:13:15 GMT
No vendor decided not to carry Cheness, from what I understand Cheness isn't providing to any other 3rd party vendors other than SBG now, of their own decision.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Mar 31, 2012 3:53:17 GMT
Indeed. From what I understand, they decided to tighten their belts and reduce their selling to their own site and here. I personally think that it was a wise decision. With many sites being forced to shut down from a combination of dwindling margins and stretching themselves too thin this may allow them to keep enough profit to sustain themselves.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 31, 2012 3:54:46 GMT
Even plain utilitarian fittings come in different quality. Let take a look at a Cheness Tenchi, Ronin Dojo Pro, and Dynasty Forge Musha.
All three have rather plain fittings. In fact the DF Musha tsuba is very similar to the Tenchi, except that the Musha tsuba is of better quality and looks much better. The DF Musha fuchi/kashira is also plain Higo style. The Ronin Dojo Pro also have plain sukashi fittings and plain steel fuchi/kashira. The Tenchi still have that ugly brass fittings. The Tenchi is the only one using cheap brass fittings.
Next, let look at the ito. Cheness Tenchi is the only one with poor quality fuzzy ito. DF Musha and Ronin Dojo Pro both have good quality ito.
We move on to the saya. Cheness is the only one without buffalo horn Kurikata, Koguchi and Kojiri. Those things are not decorative. They serve a durability function. The koiguchi and kojiri prevent the saya from spitting. The koiguchi is most important, it is a layer of safety between your left hand and the sword during the draw. The kurikata need to be durable because it is what connect the saya to the swordsman obi.
Finally, we look at price. DF Musha is $230, much cheaper than Cheness Tenchi (which is at $280). Even the Ronin Dojo Pro, which is the highest quality of the three swords, is only $275 (and free shipping).
It seems that Cheness is being out competed in every aspect, from quality to price.
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George
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Post by George on Mar 31, 2012 6:54:09 GMT
I don't like them because i ordered an over size blade. I got them to ship it not in its saya (so it was under the size). Of course this meant any damage wasn't covered by warranty. Of course it arrived with a rolled Kissaki, even tho i gave instructions to tape two pieces of long wood along the blade. They didnt and the katana slipped out the bottom of the package and rolled the point of the kissaki. The Tsuba was also very loose. Now i know this is a trivial point, as they stated it may get damaged. BUT for a company that sends 1000's of swords you would assume they had some common sense in packaging. Hell ive sent antiques through the mail that were lacking scabbards and saya and i always make sure it can slip out or move. Its not hard. They had it inside a mailing tube but the mailing tube was SHORTER than the blade length. I repaired and sold it and i didnt have an issue sending it, i made sure i couldn't move around inside the box...
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Mar 31, 2012 7:26:13 GMT
Beats me. I own a few Cheness katana, and I don't have any problems with them. Experience has shown me that the fittings are tight and durable on the tsuka (no splits, warps, or cracking), and the tsuba are brass, steel, alloy, or cast iron, depending upon the model you buy. The blades are wicked sharp and durable, and the prices, to me, are reasonable ($199 for a 1060 monosteel Mokko as of today, 3/31/12). If you're looking for a basic tameshigiri tool, I can recommend the 1060 Mokko, the 9260 Oniyuri, or the 9260 O-katana, based on experience. I like the 100% cotton ito because the cotton soaks up hand sweat, versus some of the poly blends on other brands that cause the grip to be slightly slippery.
Are the fittings plain? Sure, but then, I didn't buy the Cheness for looks; I got it for tameshigiri/ bottle cutting practice.
Eh; some people like'em, some don't.
--Edward
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Post by Toast on Mar 31, 2012 15:51:46 GMT
I don't think the fittings on my Tenchi swords are "ugly" and "cheap". This strikes me like an elitist personal opinion. I would never describe another member's property or work in such a manner. I like my Cheness katanas very much. They are highly durable and appeal to me both in quality and aesthetics. What one person likes another person may not be so crazy about. The SBG Store has probably sold a fair amount of Tenchi over the years. I don't think Paul Southern would agree with you in saying they are "cheap" and "ugly," considering that his following quote seems to be the hallmark of his business philosophy:
"If I wouldn't personally buy it for myself, you won't find it offered here..!"
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Mar 31, 2012 19:28:06 GMT
SoS did go to an effort to breakdown for us the Cheness product against other swords in the same price range, so I don't think elitist is a valid criticism.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 31, 2012 20:16:54 GMT
I have handled more sub-$300 than Toast probably have -- Cheness Tenchi, Hanwei Raptor (3 variations), Dynasty Forge Musha (2 variations), Ronin Dojo Pro, and Kris Cutlery. And Cheness is out-competed by everyone else. Speaking of brass fittings. Going beyond look, brass is a weaker material than steel or even bronze. It is an acceptable material. But why bother to make a tough sword then not use steel fittings?
By the way, I got my Ronin Dojo Pro from the scratch-and-dent sale for $150. So what is wrong with it? Nothing, a very minor scratch on the saya. Let see Cheness competes with that level of QC.
And if you insist on having a sword from 9260 steel, go to Ebay and buy one from Huawei. Depend on the fittings, they are going from $100 to $120.00, less than half the cost of a Tenchi.
If you only have one sword, you tends to think it is the best sword in the world. That is understandable because it is human nature. But if you take a step back and objectively ask yourself, "Did I get the best bang for my buck? What else can I get for that amount of money?" Then you get to handle the items you could have gotten otherwise for the same bucks. You would think otherwise.
Emotional shoppers normally don't get good deal. I am all about good deals. Different people have different budget. But you should always try to get the most out of your hard earned money.
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Post by Toast on Mar 31, 2012 21:03:44 GMT
Dear Student of the Sword:
You know nothing about me, or what I own. You're condescending. I am relatively new to SBG, however I monitored the site for years before I joined. Before I joined SBG, I always took note of locked threads due to people arguing. I seem to remember some of these locked threads involved your posts. You have over 1,550 posts on SBG, and that's probably a considerable investment in time. I get the sense that you never perceive yourself as being wrong. It's a waste of time to disagree with you. You make assumptions and don't offer the same respect that is given you.
Good luck in all your future endeavors.
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Mar 31, 2012 21:04:37 GMT
A TH at $200 does seem just a little bit high.
KCs have the best blades and steel fittings. (no rayskin and a plain jane saya) My 29III is my favorite just has a PC snake tsuba on it. Arguably Ronin is the best all arounder - but I'd take a KC blade anyday.
Personally, I'd rather have a Cheness than a Huawei (got one right next to me). Huawei still has very beefy blades and axe handled tsukas ...The beefy blade just feels...slow and unresponsive.
Raptors are great cept for the nasty tsuka...they really really need to fix that.
In conclusion, I'd rate KC > Ronin > Hanwei > Cheness > Huawei but that's just me. Ronin has a very tempting package...don't pass them up.
I'd rather have a Ronin than the DH T10 hauwei and used Hanwei Shinto I got lying around
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ghost
Member
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Post by ghost on Mar 31, 2012 21:10:48 GMT
Haha. Sorry but you're really not the first person to point out SoS personality. :lol: It's totally SOS fault!!!
He's a blunt and straightforward person. He's not being condescending persay...rather he is well learned in katanas and has gone through the spectrum. The people who I think are most knowledgeable about them are SOS and Google...who probably will agree on Cheness just not being there yet.
I don't think you have anything to gripe about with your sword - it's a well done beater, but it does lose to several others at the price point.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 31, 2012 21:42:52 GMT
I find it is strange that when I criticize a sword; some people react as if I was insulting their ancestry. It is reasonable to assume that said person is sentimentally attached to such sword.
All I can say to Toast is that I was talking about a sword, not you. No need to be sensitive and defensive. A Cheness Tenchi (or an expensive sword for that matter) is an inanimate object. It does not have feeling. It does not flatter when you praise it nor does it get sad when you criticize it.
I did not even say that it is a terrible sword, only that other swords are nicer for cheaper or the same price range. People are so sensitive this day.
If you think I am wrong, bring out the facts and evidences. I am happy to concede and change my mind when there are new evidences that contradict my view. John Maynard Keynes once said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, Sir?"
This site is the equivalence of "Consumer Reports" for swords. If a sword is not objectively critiqued; then the site failed in its mission. Glowing reviews do not good to consumers.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 31, 2012 21:57:01 GMT
Ghost,
For the longest time, I viewed DF Musha as the best sub $300 in term of quality/price. Then Hanwei Raptor came, it became the top of the class because Hanwei undersold everyone else. It was under $200. Now, Raptor's price went up and I finally got my hand on Kris Cutlery and Ronin Dojo Pro.
I say Kris Cutlery and Ronin Dojo Pro tie in first place for the sub $300 market. It impossible for me to pick between them.
The thing about the market is that it is always changing. The best sub $300 this year may not be the same one next year.
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