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Post by Fifteenthirty on Apr 6, 2012 12:42:40 GMT
The Tenchi was sharp out of the box, but I have touched it up with some wet-and-dry a few times... that's the great thing about cheap monosteel katanas: you can cut with them, sharpen them, and not worry about it!
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 6, 2012 13:00:14 GMT
That's the same thing said earlier and it's still just as wrong. Come one people, it's simply not true. The fact that you cut better with the tenchi just shows that the katana's edge is more geared towards soft targets and that you're honestly not good enough with the longsword. As I said, curved blades forgive bad technique much better than straight. But a western swordsman can match a japanese cut for cut if he knows what he's doing. I wish people would stop thinking the katana to be the best cutting sword.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 13:28:16 GMT
Ah, so it was you who derailed the conversation earlier! :lol: Blackthorn wrote: the European ideal of a warrior/knight was said to have been based on the ancient Greek ideal, broad shoulders, muscular frame, narrow waist, athletic and at an age where they have the benefit of youthful strength, where the Japanese ideal was a thick waisted older man, with their weight being predominately on the lower half of their bodies. A completely different approach, hence completely different weapons. Read the ARMA source: www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htmThen read anything on the the origins of western society, art and ideal, and you should be right! The nation of Greece didn't exist at the time of the Battle of Thermopylae, it was a collection of independent City-Stares, so Spartans were Spartans. When the Hellenic people united they became the nation we know as Greece. And please, if you're one of theose people who want to tell me that the ancient Greeks were Slavs, Africans or extraterrestrails, I don't want to hear about it, I've had my quota of fiction for the day! :lol:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 13:32:17 GMT
Sounds great, I touched up the blade when I first got mine, might try some plastic bottles tomorrow!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 13:35:50 GMT
Precisely, some people just don't get it!!! :?
And they're being told this by one guy with a handle of "chenessfan" and an owner of a Cheness tenchi and six other Japanese blades who doesn't even own a longsword! :lol:
Seriously guys, Chenessfan is right on the money here!
Fifteenthirty, it would be more accurate to say that the katana is optimised for soft targets, the longsword for harder targets (hope that's correct about the longsword!)
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Post by Fifteenthirty on Apr 6, 2012 13:43:49 GMT
Longswords are straight, and longer. They will outthrust a shorter, curved blade. Katana are also generally sharper. They will outcut a less sharp blade (as in more easily cut through soft media).
I can cut better with the katana because it is sharper. I can cut perfectly well with the longsword (most of the time!) I could probably get better cuts on empty bottles if I sharpened it like a razor, but that is not what it was designed for. You wouldn't want to half sword a katana! MY longsword needs a fairly positive 'chopping' type stoke to cut well, whereas the katana slices.
There is really not a great deal of technique necessary to cut plastic bottles on a stand.
How do you feel about kreigmessers? Not as good at cutting as longswords?
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Post by Fifteenthirty on Apr 6, 2012 13:47:25 GMT
I feel a better comparison would be: what is better, rapier vs katana?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 13:58:39 GMT
Fifteenthirty, I think you need to qualify what you've written for clarity "I can cut soft targets better with the katana because it is sharper. I can cut perfectly well with the longsword (most of the time!) I could probably get better cuts on empty bottles if I sharpened it like a razor, but that is not what it was designed for. You wouldn't want to half sword a katana! MY longsword needs a fairly positive 'chopping' type stoke to cut well, whereas the katana slices." Having a razor sharp curved blade make it easier to cut for backyard cutters using soft targets, but its not necessary for all swords. A euro sword that is blunt enough to be half sworded safely will easily go through hard targets, see this video Blunt Bastard-Sword Cutting Bamboo: It might help in terms of technique to use more of a draw cutting motion with the longsword to draw the blade through the target rather than to hack through it like a machete, that might improve the longsword cutting. It should cut as well as a katana with practice. Check out this video Ancient Edge Bastard Sword Cutting Demo (Tameshigiri) :
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Post by Fifteenthirty on Apr 6, 2012 14:34:18 GMT
Blackthorn: the video showed single hand cuts, and no draw cutting. the actions used were more like the chopping action I described. It is more like splitting than slicing. The longsword, although used in judicial duels and other unarmoured contexts, was primarily a knightly weapon of war, thus for use in and against armour (the armour negating use of a shield, hence two available for the sword). This is why I mentioned rapiers as more comparable to katana, as civilian duelling weapons used against unarmoured opponents. Clearly the relative bluntness of the longsword is due to the need for a more robust edge to more readily withstand strikes against hard targets. This does mean it does not cut well. I don't however cut armour in my backyard... only plastic bottles... which only 'split' when full of water, but 'slice' quite nicely when empty.
Combat technique (I speak from jujitsu and boxing experience) is not so much about strikes or attacks, as protecting yourself whilst striking or attacking safely. I imagine sword combat is the same.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 14:52:16 GMT
The United States invented the Atomic Bomb because it was the only weapon able to defeat a Katana ! :lol:
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 6, 2012 14:56:43 GMT
First off, I'm not sure what video you watched but the guy in the vid mentioned above is James Williams and though he's mostly a katana guy, he damn well knows how to cut. If you believe he's more splitting than slicing, I'm sorry but you apparently have no idea how to use a straight sword. You're not "splitting" anything with a straight sword, you're slicing!!
Secondly, the longsword was NOT primarily a weapon of war. Swords always were back up weapons on the battlefield and the longsword was mostly popular during the late 14th to early 16th century as a civilian weapon for self defense or both armored and unarmored duels. In fact the TYPICAL civilian dueling sword from that time was the longsword! Do you think all these manuals still existing today show combat in a war scenario? No, they all depict civilians. Swords didn't play an important role at all during most military conflicts of that time. They're not of much use against armor but are a terrifying weapon against unarmored opponents and so naturally became very popular with wealthy civilians. Your stereotyping drives me crazy.There is not ONE longsword, there was a huge variety of longswords. Both comparably blunt swords for armored duels as well as very sharp and light civilian swords. To talk of a "relative bluntness of longswords" is simply wrong. So saying a longsword needs to withstand hard targets and therefore sports a blunter edge than a katana is seeing a very incomplete picture.
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Apr 6, 2012 14:58:35 GMT
I personnaly find katana vs longsword comparisons a bit hard to do ... Which type of katana or longsword are we speaking of ?
Both weapons had plenty of subvariants (especially the longsword) and came in a very wide variety of quality levels. Saying a katana cuts better or a longsword thrust better is a bit off, intelluctually. Not all swords came with the same edge qualities and geometries. Not all had the same curvature, nor the same level of workmanship. Nearly every single historical sword we have today was a one-off custom-made product.
In the end, comparing katanas and longswords is a very complicated thing because we are actually comparing two wildly variable groups of weapons, both in term of shape, built, quality, handling, etc.
Just sayin'
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 15:02:48 GMT
From what I've heard about cutting with a straight blade (of which I know nothing really being a JSA person) form others, you are meant to pull the blade though the strikle more than a curved blade because the straight blade doesn't automatically slice in deeper like a curved one does. I'm only relaying what I've heard and hopelessly out of my depth here on cutting with longswords, hope someone with some experience can chime in here!
You're right about the the katana (Edo period style ones we all collect that comprise nearly all of the market) being civilian weapons closer to rapiers and not comparable to knightly swords. In the Euro sword community, it's pretty clear to everyone which weapons were cilivian weapons, and which were war weapons.
Unfortunately, in the world of Japanese swords (maybe because of the huge influx of newbies from the comic book/manga/anime scene not up with real history) many people can't tell the difference, and think that the peacetime Edo period katanas are all there is to Japanese swords, and are unaware of all the other swords that led to the katana, the tachi, the odachi and nodacho, the uchigatana, and all the variants in the evolution of the blade.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 15:05:24 GMT
No, that's how you sharpen a katana - being the hardest substance in existence katana steel cannot be sharpened with any physical material, because they're not hard enough, only a thermonuclear explosion can restore the edge of a worn katana! :lol:
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 6, 2012 15:09:55 GMT
No, noooooo!! Wrong!! See my last post. Regarding cutting with straight swords, I'm not gonna go in depth here, this subject has been done to death. Look here for starters: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9484
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 15:13:13 GMT
I'll admit I'm quite ignorant as far as longswords go too, so any information about them shared here will go a long way for a lot of us. being a beginners forum, its a good learning ground, I might know something about the Japanese stuff, but I'm a beginner when it comes to Euro swords - I only know abour smallswords and a bit about rapiers, lots to learn!
Chenessfan, it's OK - I realised my mistake, and promplt;y edied my post, I deleted it that bit, you beat me to it and quoted it! It's 1:00 am here and I'm losing focus, so that's my excuse! :lol:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 15:15:04 GMT
The closest thing I own to a longsword is a H/T Bastard sword, assuming its similar, but most likely isn't! The bastard swords were were swords I hope? Help! :oops:
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 6, 2012 15:23:18 GMT
Now regarding bastard swords, there is the exact same thing as with longswords, there is quite a variety of them. Many were purely civilian swords simply because with such a handy blade hilt ratio, it's among the ideal types for civilian carry. Not as cumbersome as a true longsword with a 38" blade but still long enough to give good reach. Mostly used with two hands but with a buckler it's still very usable.
The H/T is a perfect example of a civilian sword, very light and handy with nonetheless impressive cutting and thrusting potential. Wouldn't be ideal for the battlefield, not enough mass to impart blunt trauma and also not stiff and massive enough for thrusts against armored opponents. So while I'd say the majority of bastard swords weren't made with the battlefield primarily in mind, there of course also are originals with blade lengths that make it tempting to classify them as bastard swords but are absolutely intended as war swords. The Svante comes to mind there. Even though with that grip it ain't a good example for bastard sword anyway. You know, it the end it's brutally complicated to classify swords. There just are way to many factors and variations. This is why it drives me nuts when somebody makes any absolute statement like "longswords are blunter than katana" or "longswords are geared towards thrusting", etc. Yes, some might have been but you'll always find some that aren't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 15:45:59 GMT
Thanks, that explains why my H'T Bastard sword which is a Oakeshott type XVIIIa is much thinner and more slender than my other cheap example of a Oaekshott type XVIIIa, the DSA Two Handed Gothic Sword, with its long, acutely pointed blade, and it's quite obvious that it is designed to be pitted against armour and is not a civilain blade. Now I know here my H/T Bastard sword fits in to the scheme of things.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 16:42:15 GMT
Also, thanks for the link "the Cutting Poewr of Swords" - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9484This whole topic was discussed as part of that thread two months ago!
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