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Post by madocreg on Mar 4, 2012 16:23:19 GMT
I am new to the cutting of things with blades. I have recently acquired a Hanwei cutting Jian and Practical Dao. I have been working on cutting various plastic bottles and containers. I am finding that it is far easier to cut with the Dao than the Jian. I am "batting" bottles with the Jian that I can easily cut multiple times with the Dao. I am not sure if it is a sharpness issue (the Dao feels much sharper than the Jian) or a technique / blade geometry issue.
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Post by Neovenetar on Mar 4, 2012 17:01:24 GMT
Well, the jian was more of a slashing and stabbing affair than the dao, which was meant to cut and chop. I think form probably has something to do with it too though.
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Post by DavidW on Mar 4, 2012 17:22:16 GMT
Well according to the review on the main site, the reviewer states that
The review also states that
The clamshell geometry and the fact that the jian is straight bladed means that you have to do more of a drawing motion when cutting a target, like you have to do more of a pulling motion when cutting through a target, rather than trying to push through the target like a chop, if you know what I mean. Similarly, the jian doesn't feel as sharp because of the clamshell geometry.
Furthermore, the practical dao has a very thin edge compared to the jian, as the practical dao was designed for light cutting through bottles and such. The cutting jian was designed for durability, as well as traditional and heavy targets.
And yes, from what I know, the form for cutting with a curved blade is different from cutting with a straight blade.
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Post by HouShe on Mar 4, 2012 22:30:50 GMT
The jian is a complex beast to cut with. Sure, you could pump out a Liao cut and power through, but with the cutting jian (and other clamshell varieties) there is extra mass behind the edge. Apparently heavier targets are actually easier to cut than light ones, due to that initial impact.
However, once you get it right, the jian performs more than adequately (unless you got an improperly sharpened one, in which case, it wouldn't matter what type of sword it was), capable of cutting through tatami mats.
Also, further research of my own has shown that there are a great many cuts in jianfa that probably wouldn't cut all that deeply, that work in some truly un-intuitive angles, specifically designed for tendon and wrist cuts while cutting around another blade.
Remember that when you cut, you're playing on easy mode. Swordsmanship generally was done with the angles required of another blade coming back in the other direction.
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Post by Groo on Mar 5, 2012 5:09:12 GMT
I agree with what everyone has said above, and traditionally the Dao was considered an easier weapon to learn than the Jian, and easier to cut, and requiring less training.
Usually the Dao is traditionally taught before the Jian for this reason.
So you know if you are ever in a situation where you are fighting lots of minions wielding Dao, and you see one guy (or girl) in the background wielding a Jian, the person with the Jian is a real bad ass expert! :lol:
Or worse still, if you see someone with only a folding fan, or a stick or a horsetail whisk instead of a blade they might have some really strong Kung Fu!!
But seriously, the Dao is generally easier to cut with!
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Post by Groo on Mar 5, 2012 5:31:44 GMT
Come to think of it, I have heard reviews of the cutting jian not arriving sharp enough. This gentleman sharpened his with a belt sander and made it sharp, but you can see the secondary bevel. Your jian might need sharpening as well. He tests it on an empty milk bottle in this vid and cuts paper after it's been sharpened, and the video shows what it was like before he sharpened it trying to cut the recipt.
Be aware that sometimes with Jian they fit snugly in the scabbard and then if you sharpen them and give them a secondary bevel they don't fit as snugly anymore (even if you only sharpen the top 1/3 of the blade). I saw another review by the same guy and his cutting jian was too loose in the scabbard. I'm not sure if this was before or after he sharpened it. Which is why he has a little band hooked over the hilt of his sword to keep it from falling out of the scabbard!
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Post by DavidW on Mar 5, 2012 7:04:44 GMT
Wasn't the saying something like it takes "100 days to master the dao, and 10,000 days to master the jian"?
That's a lot of training for the jian :shock:
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 7:19:04 GMT
Depends on the user and what weapon suits you. Some people are just naturals with the dao, some find the spear extremely fitting to them, others pick up a sword and it feels as if their hands were always meant to hold one. I had a teacher who preferred the dao as his weapon of choice, and he was a beast with it, I wouldn't say he's less skilled because the weapon is supposedly easier to master. I also have a friend who's super awkward with dao and jian, but give him a long spear and he will make it dance.
Personally, I find the jian a good match for me. Quick, agile, versatile, and utilization of precision and technique over raw speed and power. People say the dao is easier, but I find it more difficult for me. I can wield one, but it just feels clumsy and require big movements as opposed to small flicks and jabs I'm familiar with using a jian.
I'd say find the weapon that feels most comfortable and that suits your "style". Who knows, if your a natural at jian it might not take 10,000 days to reach sufficiency.
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 5, 2012 7:20:37 GMT
Test your jian cutting paper. if your not able to cut paper, or cut it roughly then you need to sharpen it.
My jian (not the cutting jian) sat in my VW front trunk for 3 years in Washington state due to my brother forgetting VWs had a trunk in the front. The blade rusted in the scabbard. I had to buy a new sword due the the jian's blade being so rusted that I would have to remove too much material to get rid of the rust. However, I tried cutting with it all rusty. Sliced right through the bottles, pool noodles, and bamboo mats like there was nothing there. So yes jian can cut. They can cut very well, even after 3 years of rusting.
I think your jian probably just needs a good sharpening. Though edge alignment might also be a factor, I would suggest you check your edge sharpness first.
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Post by HouShe on Mar 5, 2012 11:36:00 GMT
I totally agree with this. My Sifu loves the Dao, he knows it back to front, he's made it HIS. I however, feel like a brutish beast when I use it. Totally unsophisticated and clumsy. I never felt that clumsy on my first day with the jian (and I learnt that first).
I get exceedingly bored when doing Dao forms, let alone Dao drills. Whereas, I can spend all my time doing Jianfa happily with no problems.
Of course, when you're at a higher skill level with a jian to your opponent, you can certainly make it look far more awesome than the Dao. Stillness beating Motion comes right to the fore when there's a skill disparity. Even with the skill disparity, Daofa doesn't have that air about it.
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Post by HouShe on Mar 5, 2012 11:38:33 GMT
Yes, there is that saying, but it IS an exaggeration. However, Jianfa is very very deep, you can refine and refine it, getting more and more skilled for a long time. The strength of the Dao, really is its strength, there's not the ability to weave and slice back in the same way as a jian.
They're both good weapons, and a master with either is exceedingly dangerous, however, it's a different type of mastery.
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Post by HouShe on Mar 5, 2012 11:40:43 GMT
Extra, the difference between my Sifu and I, if you were going on mass, you'd think them reversed, he's a tiny Cantonese man, whereas I'm just shy of 6' with the shoulders of a rugby forward. You'd think from size the preference would be different, but no.
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Post by Groo on Mar 5, 2012 20:36:33 GMT
HuoShe you sound like you're just a bit smaller than me physically. For me personally size and strength are one of the reasons why I originally gravitated to the softer internal styles of martial arts to balance my early tendency to overuse strength and hardness in my martial arts, and it REALLY helped me in other fighting styles. I mainly am interested in the internal martial arts for health and cultivation. For this I also am interested in the Jian because it is often more closely associated with cultivation and soft, Nei Jia such as Wu Dang. And typically the Dao often is considered harder, of course with exceptions, Ba Gua Dao being a huge glaring exception with their MASSIVE DAO, and Taiji and Xing Yi have dao forms, the latter using even the beastly Da Dao! The Jian typically lacks the hacking movements of the Dao (although some styles use the Jian in a similar manner to the Dao) Much to the chagrin of orthodox Wudang Stylists Anyway Madocreg, please let us know how you get on with your Jian, like whether it needed sharpening  |
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normanno
Member
the warriors don't show their heart until the axe reveals it.
Posts: 147
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Post by normanno on Mar 6, 2012 21:25:34 GMT
One of charateristics of internal styles is to learn how use the strenght of articulations.
I practice Bagua Zhang from ten years and I never hear any forms with a specific weapons.
Traditionally in the Bagua Zhang there aren't any typical weapons, like jian, dao, spear etc..
This is because the practitioner of bagua zhang has a great ability and power in his articulations, so everything in his hands
is a deadly weapon.
So the power of the weapon isn't only in the edge, but is also in the hands of the fencer.
I'm sorry but english isn' my language.
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Post by madocreg on Mar 7, 2012 14:53:51 GMT
Thanks for all the great responses. I have tried paper cutting with the Hanwei Jian and it seems to be hit and miss. If it catches it can cut it fairly cleanly. I think that the edge may be inconsistent? I think for the most part it is probably about learning to pull my cuts rather than striking in a percussive manner and keep a keen eye on my edge alignment.
I have signed up for a two day class with Scott Rodell coming up in April so I may be able to address some of the issues at that time.
In the mean time I will just have to keep on hacking away at bottles with the jian and refine as I go. I will intersperse it with the Dao because it is just too much fun to use.
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Post by track86 on Mar 7, 2012 19:38:40 GMT
Madocreg, I found that on my CS jian, the edge towards the tip is much sharper and more suitable for paper cutting. I cannot cut paper with the edge close to the handle. You can give that a try.
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Post by madocreg on Mar 10, 2012 15:19:06 GMT
Did a few more cuts with the hanwei cutting jian yesterday. Some working quite well others not so. some plastics seem more resilient than others. More inspection on the blade makes me think that the edge is inconsistent in its sharpening and overall not very sharp. I have not sharpened a sword particularly one with historically correct "apple seed" edge geometry and I'm pretty nervous to tackle the project but it is becoming evident that it may be necessary if I want to enjoy plastic target cutting. Especially after watching the earlier posted vid of cutting an empty jug and paper so easily after sharpening.
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Post by Elysian on Mar 11, 2012 8:02:36 GMT
Been watching Ip Man?  |
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Post by Groo on Mar 11, 2012 8:07:36 GMT
No just WAAAYY too much Wuxia!! :lol: (Legend of Condor Heroes, Return of Condor Heroes, Sword Stained With Royal Blood, etc, and Throwback Shaw Brothers Movies)
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 11, 2012 8:18:38 GMT
Sharpening a convex edge is not so difficult, don't let it scare you. There are a lot of convex sharpening videos on you tube if you want to get your self familar with the concept. Maybe try sharpening a knife or two first to get practice.
Of course the simple way is to get a belt sander, or a worksharp knife sharpener. With the belt sander method you can get a nice sharp convex edge in just a few minutes.
There are a few threads about this on SBG if your interested in that option.
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