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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jan 29, 2012 19:34:12 GMT
Before I start, I would like to point out that I am new and is still learning. My sensei is teaching me kenjutsu at the moment, but he likes to use his bo staff. I enjoy sparring him sword vs sword, but simply get frustrated against the staff. Yep, 9 out of 10 martial artist tell me that when 2 people of similar level fight, the staff win.
However I've just seen him doing some cutting exercise, and the katana slice cleanly through cloth wrapped bamboo as if it's not even there. I'm pretty sure european sword could do the same thing. I'm having the thought that people actually says spear/polearm is better than sword because no one was crazy enough to test such thing in a real situation: a sharp, battle honed sword vs a spear. My guess is that the sword will possibly slice through the shaft of the polearm or at least bite into it and severely weaken it. In training however a dull blade is to me, a shorter spear that handle differently. Hence the argument of spear superiority.
That's just my doubt though. Does anyone have the experience to enlighten me? thanks
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Post by Student of Sword on Jan 29, 2012 19:44:05 GMT
It is a complicate topic. These videos perhaps will provide some insights.
Starting at approximately 5:30 minutes:
Starting at approximately 3:30 minutes:
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jan 29, 2012 20:26:05 GMT
thanks. I'm familiar with these vids. For the 1st one, you can notice that while the naginata did get in more fatal hits, the katana made 3 contact with the shaft (not the blade) and I'm guessing with his skill and given how sharp a good katana is those 3 strikes would be enough to break the shaft. Or am I wrong? I do know that a good shaft is solid but haven't test cutting it before.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 29, 2012 20:27:14 GMT
Unless the wood is extremely soft or damaged, a sword cannot cut through it. It may bite, but that's about it; case in point (skip to 1:32):
Generally speaking, a spear is better than a sword because it doesn't take long to teach a man to hold it and start jabbing at anything that's not a friend; add in the increased reach and you've got an easy to learn weapon that can be used very effectively against swordsman, cavalry, and most types of infantry. Now, once you start getting into more advanced spear-play (not to mention most other polearms), the advantage of being easier to learn is largely stripped away. Then you rely on your own skill, as more advanced polearm skills often involve moving the spear in ways similar to a sword, stripping away much of the reach advantage; the spear, however, has the ability to strike with either end at almost the full extent of its range, which is quite difficult for a sword to do (it can be done, such as the murder blow with the longsword wherein you grab the blade with both hands and strike with the guard/pommel). That's generally why there would often be techniques developed to combat the spear with the sword if necessary. I know it's Chinese rather than Japanese, but this clip shows an example of some:
Not that much different from how you'd face a sword, when you think about it; either way, you want to control your opponent's weapon and keep the point as far from you as possible, though I don't think it'd be very wise to deflect a sword so far away, as a crafty opponent can use the momentum to bring it 'round again and strike at you.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jan 29, 2012 20:41:36 GMT
Did you mistake the second vid? Could you correct it I would love to see those techniques. Thanks!
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 29, 2012 20:51:03 GMT
Oh, damn, I sure did. It's fixed now. Jack Chan, the uploader of the second clip has several more dealing with the miaodao (a descendent of the nodachi, which is a descendent of the tachi, itself a descendent of the Tang Dynasty dao, bringing everything full circle), as well as a full demonstration of the form these techniques belong to. It's quite the interesting watch, even if you're not into CSA. He also has some titled "Sword Treatise" that deals with more sword vs. spear techniques; also worth watching are his dadao clips, which show techniques for using the short dadao (generally with a blade no greater than 24") against a bayonet, although it could be translated to be used against a spear quite effectively.
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Post by HouShe on Jan 29, 2012 21:38:11 GMT
In the (translated) words of Jin Yiming, a swordsman and martial artist from China during the turn of the century.
"Where they were the same, it was always in the way short weapons respond to long. When short meets long, there is no need to hurry. If you hurry, he will get you for sure. I wait for his sword to get near me, then take my body to the side, neither dodging nor parrying, but immediately lifting my sword and advancing to strike. Although the sword is short, I move aside and attack. The step covers four feet, the arm another two feet, the sword a further three feet. Advancing and retreating covers more than ten feet. Although his spear is long, what can he do to me? Furthermore, the Dragon Shape Sword emphasizes coiling dragon footwork and the marvels of spinning-body swordwork. Consequently after practicing this, short weapon defeats long by advancing through the long weapon’s gaps, rendering long weapons ineffective. Look upon halberd and spears as trivial, and staffs and cudgels as useless. Add to that the abilities for leaping and jumping, and the methods of advancing and retreating, then so what if hoards of opponents came to attack me, including the very skilled, with their countless dancing blades."
Essentially, minus all the flowery speech, yes, you can defeat a staff with a sword. It just requires agile and active footwork and working with different distances and knowing how a polearm works, thereby moving into the gaps where they can't defend against you properly.
In CMA (which I am familiar with, but I'm sure there were similar solutions in WMA) we have quite a few moves designed specifically for dealing with spears and other polearms. They almost all include spins, leaps, highly exaggerated leans and bodywork to counter it. They are some of the harder, more advanced techniques. But they do exist and wouldn't have been maintained if they weren't effective.
So yes, it is harder, but possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 12:32:05 GMT
The chinese considered the spear as the king of the weapons for a reason... A spearman would make very short work of a swordsman, going against a spear with a sword is a sure way to get skewered!
If you look at history, the answers are resoundingly clear. The Japanese samurai used as their primary weapons the bow (yumi) from horseback, or the spear (yari) on foot. The sword was only a backup weapon if they lost their spear! The 'cult of the katana' was a load of peacetime bs that was dreamed up after real samurai warriors were long gone, so forget the nonsense you see in the movies. Armies pitted spear against spear on the battlefield, it was the superior weapon, the spear dominated the battlefields across various times and cultures right around the world.
The naginata was just as deadly to the swordsmen, who had a nasty habit of losing their legs when fighting naginatas, which forced the infantry to adopt shin armour as a consequence to improve their survival chances. History is very telling.
Don't think that chopping a piece of bamboo is anything like hitting a solid spear shaft. Katana blades are designed to draw cut unarmoured flesh. Unlike many european swords which were actually designed to encounter armour, a katana is not made for hard targets. Also, a spear point is very mobile, it can dart in an out faster than a two handed sword, so you'll have trouble hitting it square on with any force as the tip will slide with the blow. Nobody is crazy enough to put their spear shaft flat on a sturdy table for a swordsman to try to cut through it!
Also, historically, on battles where spears were used, a large number of kills were not due to spear thrusts, but from blows from the butt of the spear, a very large number of skulls found on the battlefield had the side temple areas smashed in, consistent with strike from a swung spear staff. I don't have the references for this research handy, you can look it up. A staff would do the same damage, only that the thrust wont be always lethal like with the spear.
I'm not sure if you've ever used a staff, but if you've ever struck anything with a full force blow you'd realise just how much force is generated by a heavy six foot pole swung from one end. It wouldn't be a pleasant experience blocking this with a sword.
It would take a very good swordsman and a heap of luck to beat a spear, seriously, its no contest...
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Post by Google on Jan 30, 2012 13:45:44 GMT
A quick look at JODO will answer your questions. In the high levels, some use real swords against a jo, which is thinner and not lacquered like the yari\naginata. Even though the blade makes contact with the jo, the jo in unharmed because of the ANGLE. If you take the cut full on, the wood will cut\break\damage. Ancient warriors have realized this before your great grandparents were even thinking of being born, and therefore developed techniques for fighting that will let them keep their weapon intact afterwards.
P.S.: jodo (at least shinto muso ryu) was developed from yarijutsu and bojutsu if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 30, 2012 16:00:32 GMT
I am not going to deny that historically a spear was a first choice. But very good swordsman with heaps of luck, I would call that a stretch. Even a basic swordman would know to not block with the edge. Not blocking with the edge prevents the sword from biting into the spear. Now all ranged weapons are effective at a range from the individual to some other range closer to the individual. No weapon with a long range is as deadly up close and personal. Generally the longer the range, the further you can be from nose to nose in relative safety. Obviously the safest thing is to just run. But if you cant run, your best bet is to take one hit on your way in. No silly jumps or ducks, take the hit (with another weapon you can deflect or absorb some of the hit with the weapon) and get youself inside their effective range, preferably with them at a good spot in your weapons range. Next in line would be to try and get some sort of slice etc while getting into nose touching nose. Give it a try with a sword or spear, have a friend bearhug you and see how effective your weapon is. Gettin in there is the whole weapons battle, after that its more on who is better without weapons. Unless they are really dumb and try to drive you away with a flashy power swing, that means you can run in and take a hit on their return even closer to them for less impact to you.
And again, dont get me wrong, back in the day I would grab a polearm before the sword. The advantages are great. And to maximize their disadvantages, the enemy would have to act against thier own instincts. A guy waving a baseball bat is not the most inviting situation to sprint (from the proper just out of range distance) at the first opportune moment. Though I must say I have never been attacked by someone holding a polearm or spear, but I would handle it the same way. None of the above do I want to spend much time at the end of the weapon in question.
edit: this is my 2 cents on the conversation!
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Post by Student of Sword on Jan 30, 2012 21:27:09 GMT
I thought we are talking about individual combat, not battle. In battle, individual skill means nothing and does nothing to alter the outcome. It is the collective skill of the units working together that determine the outcome. I would like to see the historical text concerning the use of spear butt as blunt trauma weapon. This is because it is contracting the tactic and strategy of the late Warring Period. Spear men formed tightly packed formation (several layers deep) and presented their spears as a solid sharpened wall -- it would be impossible to swing your spear without hitting men next to you or behind you.
Only in when formation was broken into melee, could one use the spear in free flowing fashion. Even then, there is limitation to what a spear can do. In many warlords armies, the spears were very long, heavy, and cumbersome -- 10 to 12 feet long. They were use like spikes. It would be impossible to fight with those spears outside of formation. In that cases, spears were abandoned for swords. All ashigaru were issued katana in addition to their spears, matchlocks, or bows. In most cases, if the formations were broken, defeat was almost certain -- unless the opposing side's formation was broken as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 21:32:16 GMT
IMO-Blackthorn has it RIGHT. Skilled Spearman wins every time.....UNLESS swordsman is expert at Flying BudK Ryu technique... :lol:
Cutting a spear or naginata shaft won't likely happen due to a number of issues. Namely - non-static action and movement of both weapons, weapon angles of combat relative to each other, yaris frequently have one to two feet or more sometimes of tang as would other polearms, plus fittings on the shaft just make it highly unlikely to happen before the combat ends.
A good swordsman already knows and understands the spear vs sword confrontation scenario.
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Post by HouShe on Jan 30, 2012 21:42:43 GMT
Very well written, especially since it is essentially a modern re-writing of what I quoted. Keep in mind that the quote I used was from a man back in the Republican era of China, which had actual spear fighting and melee combat. One of the few places in the world where such things, and people who had mastered them lived into the 20th century. (Which is one of the reasons why they are my personal favourites)
Yes, the polearm was a much easier weapon to use, yes it also makes life difficult for a swordsman. No it is not invincible or even anywhere close. The Chinese called the Spear the king of weapons for a reason. But even kings can be taken down. It's a matter of sophistication in their usage. Yes, the Spear is effective, as are most polearms, but they also have gaps. Ranges where they can't fight back as effectively. A jian swordsmans advantage against EVERY weapon, even other types of swords with approximately the same range is their maneuverability and adaptability.
Remember, swords did not survive for long if they couldn't stand up against other weapons of the time, they also required an incredibly high level of training in comparison to other types of weapons. There are NO swordsmen alive today that have that level of skill unfortunately. It was a weapon that remained in the hands of people dedicated to warfare and training with it, simply because they were so complicated, but it was worth it in the long run.
Whereas because a polearm is so simple to learn, you can reach a similar level of proficiency to those in the past without too much trouble.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 30, 2012 22:11:32 GMT
A good swordsman, in a fight with a spear, would not try to cut the spear;
A) they most likely wont cut through it
B) there is a high chance the blade would bite into the wood, and a fairly decent spearman could take advantage of this and disarm the swordsman using the spears leverage.
C) Its much easier to use the shinogi or mune to block the spear and allow the spear to ride the shinogi/mune up to the spearman.
the naginata would be much trickier, stricly due to the tsuba I have commonly seen on them.
So a good swordsman wouldnt fight the spear, but avoid it and fight the person holding the spear.
Seriously, give it a try. throw on some pads. take a pole, stepping forward and block at the same time. step fast and hard and when you feel the pressure start to drop on the bokken push hard into the spear. learn the timing to get the pole to pop off the sword due to the poles returning flex. unfortunately the faster it is done, the easier it is to accomplish. Either that or I just got super lucky a couple times, and a lot less lucky a bunch more times. and by a lot less lucky, i am talking about getting the spear to pop off the bokken.
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Post by Odingaard on Jan 31, 2012 1:58:05 GMT
I'll add two cents on the European side of things:
I've done sparring with various weapons in the Fiore system. I would personally take a pole arm over a sword any day. You can get a great grasp on it with it with minimal training, and it evens the playing field. This is why it was issued in bulk to poorly trained troops throughout history. You could train someone to use a pole arm in a day, wheras training someone to properly use a sword or bow would take much longer. This has been documented time and time again.
Fiore seen it this way as well: He spoke of the pole arm as being a cruel and unfair weapon if used against someone armed with a sword. Only a superior swordsman could engage someone armed with a pole arm and win. However, if your opponent had a pole arm, it was recommended you get one as well. It could be a very short fight.
Now, we've cut tested ash hafts before. I know for a fact that a sword will not cut though one. In fact, a sword will not even get enough bite in one to use leverage against it because the cut is not deep enough.
In the Fiore system, we did fight other weapons against the pole arm. Sword/board, two hander, dagger, mace, and open hand. In my own experience, I found the dagger to be the best weapon against a pole arm (if I could not have a pole arm myself). The secret to a successful melee in that case becomes a matter of avoiding the pole arm, getting inside the pole arm's reach, then grappling your opponent. One of my favorite moves is to close the gap, get in close, and grab my opponent's aventail to yank them off-balance. Once off-balance, its a simple matter to dispatch them with a dagger. This works frequently, but not always - just as with any combat, it's a dice roll based on a ton of factors.
Ultimately, in the end, it wholly depends on skill and has nothing to do with wheather or not they are armed with a pole arm. So to the question sword vs. spear/polearm, I'd lean toward pole arm due to personal experience, but then again, I know that it depends on the soldier more than anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 9:16:59 GMT
Just a few notes - the long 'spears' student mentions are in fact pikes, these are a very different weapon, used in formation, only the tip was used. Although spears varied in length historically, there were many around the 7 foot mark, with metal butt spikes or caps to add a wider range of attacks. When fighting with a spear, as demonstrated in the Cold Steel spear fighting videos, you don't wait for an opponent with a shorter weapon to come into range and cross weapons. The longer waepon needs to maintain its range, so it attacks from a distance, fast, hard and mercilessly. The advantage is huge. Check out the Cold Steel video www.coldsteel.com/spear.html - especialy at 17:10, where he explains the strategy of spear fighting with a nice demo. BTW, the spear self defence section of this video begins at the 15:00 mark. Like Odingaard says, the skill of the fighter is important, and as he also mentions, it takes a lot less training to use a polearm compared to a sword. Coupled with the reach and speed advantage of a spear, the fact that it can attack in as many planes as a double edged sword for a slash or thrust, plus it can strike with the other ends like a staff gives it a lot of tactical advantage. From my perspective when you can be more effective with less training, and have the tactical advantage, this is how you would ideally equip an army, and thats exactly the choice that was made independently across many cultures historically. they chose the spear for a reason. For anyone whose ever trained fighting against another spear, you quickly realise how intimidating it is, way more than a sword, and that's just with training weapons! If anyone doubts the effectiveness of a spear, and how hard it is to get behind the point, I recommend sparring sword against spear. Incidentally, with footwork, and the ability to 'shorten' and spear while moving backwards by shuffling your hands down the shaft in a controlled manner, it's easy to move the spear point back faster than the swordsman can move forward towards you. Here's some good sword vs spear sparring videos that are interesting to watch: ... re=relatedEven these guys confirm the spear is really hard to fight against! Enjoy! |
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 31, 2012 10:45:47 GMT
Makes me want to get a hold of some ash, a real spear vs a sword would be a lot less scary if one did not have to worry about the sword biting into it giving the spearman the advantage. And yea a dagger or tanto would be better than a sword. When you make it in range, it would be a lot easier to use since the opponent still has 2 arms and a piece of wood blocking you. But being highly uneducated in spear use, i think i would rather have no weapon than one that can be used against me. +1 on that for a weapon the would be long and cumbersome for the completely uneducated.
Yea, spears are intimidating. And I will try the spear shuffle and see how well that goes. It makes sense, but i also think it will make the end point of retreat in a position with a lot less usable power. Though the will have a short pointy stick! Though an expert spearman would be a lot more comfy in that position, would your basic run of the mill soldier be that comfortable.
And again, I am not saying either one is better than the other. I just dispute the fact you would have to be an expert swordsman to capitalize on the spears disadvantages. Swordsman can use more than their swords. Spearman can use more than their spears. Obviously a ranged weapon has an advantage. But if your in a fight you dont focus on the enemies advantages, just what disadvantages they have and capitalize on them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 11:51:04 GMT
When 'shortening the spear', you start holding the spear from the butt end, hands shoulder width apart, and as you step backwards with the rear leg, pull the spear shaft back with the rear hand, sliding through the leading hand. Then step your leading leg back to return to the same width stance, and as you do this, grip the spear with the lead hand and push it backwards, sliding it through the rear hand. It sounds more complicated than it looks, it's quite easy. Once you do this movement, and you can do it more than once with a really long spear, your hands should now be shoulder width apart mear the middle of the spear shaft. It wont be unwieldy because you'll be holding it like a staff now, and you can attack or defend with both ends.
You don't have to be an 'expert' as such to fight a spear, but you need a reasonable level of skill with a sword. Your ability to control distance and timing to get past the point or to get away from it will keep you alive. In the last two videos I posted links to, especially with the last video - two handed longsword vs spear, both guys are pretty good, and the swordsman occasionally gets a hit in and wins a bout, but the spear dominates most of the time, and they flash a closing screen saying it's damn hard fighting spears!
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 31, 2012 12:14:06 GMT
About 1:30 & 4:00 in that second vid is what I am talking about. You see how often the swordsman fails when he attempts to fight the spear like a sword with binds and parries. the 1:30 one is a good example of maximizing the spears disadvantages. And not having the time to re-watch it, iirc 4:00 was a nice example of using the sword to block some of the blows, you could replace the sword with a bokken to the same effect. concept, to me, keeping the person from being able to move the spear exactly how they wish. And yea it would be hard. There isnt a way around where you dont get beat with a wooden pole once or twice on the way it. One last note, notice at my 2 examples, the swordsman is behaving the least like a person fighting with a sword.
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Post by Neil G. on Jan 31, 2012 16:11:46 GMT
What's impressive to me isn't just how easily a spear can be shortened, but also how quickly it can be lengthened, and how if you're facing an opponent who knows how to use the spear edge instead of just the point you'll find that they can dominate a whole lot more real estate on the battle field than you might expect. For example, check out this video starting at 5:15
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