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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2012 23:55:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 1:37:16 GMT
Honing oils are formulated to clean the sharpening stone by lifting the metal particles so they don't clog the stone, and to inhibit rust, not sure how well formulated Smith's honing oil is to stay on the steel when you store your blade away for extended periods. Just use Remington gun oil, designed to stay on the metal, protect it from rust, and not gum up. It's one of the best high-tech offerings around, and it's about the same price as the Smith's honing oil, and is far superior to choji oil. There's a lot of nonsense about the value of choji oil, it's just a light mineral oil with clove oil for scent. The oil needs to be light to create a thin layer. Clove oil, like all plant oils, decompose, gum up, and can vause oxidation (rusting), wonder why bother unless it was for identification purposes, not to mix it up with cooking oil! Before the Japanese had synthetuc mineral oils, they most likely used vegetable oils instead with clove added, and this would definitely gum up your sword blade and inside the scabbard, and break down, causing corrosion - probably why they religiously cleaned their swords so often, having to remove the old gummed up layer of vegetable oil that was decomposing, and being totally obsessive about it because any decomposing oil would probably create acidic breakdown products, rusting the blade. So they went through the ritual of wiping off all the old oil, dusting it with a light abrasive dust to remove any build-up and oxidation, then re-oiling it. Times have moved on, but the for the sake of tradition, people still go through the routine for the sake of tradition, even though its not necessary, talk about blindly doing something long after you've forgotten the reasons why. I only care for tradition if it still serves a useful purpose... So, the modern alternative to the whole drawn-out, tedious, Japanese-culture entrenched, ritualised process of sword cleaning with choji oil, rice paper, and powdered abrasive stone is just a five second wipe down with gun oil and an old rag!
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 21, 2012 1:40:27 GMT
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Post by Student of Sword on Jan 21, 2012 3:06:31 GMT
Blackthorn,
Again we are at a disagreement. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But not everyone is entitled to their own facts.
Choji (i.e. mineral oil) oil is cheaper than Remington oil. Remington oil is gun oil, hence for "gun." The problem associate with firearm is different than sword, mainly carbon deposit. Swords don't need to gun oil. A sword would not be able to tell the different between mineral oil, choji oil (which is also mineral oil), or gun oil. So why pay more for gun oil? If you think the added expense of making the oil smelling nice (i.e. choji) is not necessary, then just buy mineral oil. I prefer the smell of choji so I pay a little more. Smell much nicer than gun oil, for less.
In fact, I just went on a deployment and left my swords uncared and unattended for more than 8 months. All I did before I left was lightly oiled them with choji oils. I came back and checked them recently, they were fine.
You need to do more research on mineral oil, the Japanese before modern time used mineral oil as well for their choji oil, not vegetable oil. Mineral oil did seep out of the ground. If they used vegetable oil, why bother to put in choji? The reason is to distinguish mineral oil from cooking oil. Vegetable oil is cooking oil, why bother?
Look up the history of petroleum. Fossil oils were known to mankind since ancient time. Marco Polo documented this during this travel through Baku.
"A fountain from which oil springs in great abundance, inasmuch as a hundred shiploads might be taken from it at one time," and added that "this oil is not good to use with food, but it is good to burn."
Herodotus also talked about the oil pits near Babylon and then again talking about there being an oil spring on the island of Zante (Adriatic Sea). Even Pliny told of oil in Sicily. And long before them it was recorded by ancient Chinese and Japanese writers that such oil was valued.
Yup, ancient Japanese choji oil is the same choji oil we used today -- cheap abundant mineral oil. Bonsai growers still use them for their bonsai tools, carpenters and woodworkers still use them for their tools.
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 21, 2012 4:58:24 GMT
I agree Student of Sword, there is no reason to pay extra for gun oil. Thus why I recommended the sewing machine oil, and if one wanted to make their own Choji oil with that.
Blackthorn does have somewhat of a point in Choji oil being over valued. They are selling little bottles for way too much for what it is. Plenty of sword vendors hype it like it is the only way to take care of a sword. I wish more vendors would sell just simple light mineral oil or at least provide the information that this easy to get cheap oil is what is needed.
You need not get all fancy oiling your blades. All they new high tech expensive oils that are developed don't perform better than the simple and cheap mineral oil.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 12:15:28 GMT
Hi Student, the gun oil is also used on the outside of the gun, on the blued metal surfaces. The gun oil is far superior than plain mineral oil because it's a specially designed thin fim lubricant made for more extreme conditions, that also has a moisture displacing component in it. I'm pretty sure that refined light mineral oil was not pouring out of the ground in Japan. Probably crude oil, ever seen what that looks like? Unless I missed something when studying chemistry, fractional distillation of oil wasn't invented by the Japanese, nor at a time when they were lugging around swords. From a lot of the speculation I've seen around, plus from what is used with Japanese woodworking tools today for rust prevention, Camellia oil would have been the oil they used, since Camelias are native to Japan, and they still use it today for the same purpose. You would add the cloves for scent so you didn't cook with Camelia oil, it's not edible! This might clear things up (source: www.nihontomessageboard.com/arti ... eaning.pdf ) Traditionally vegetable oil was used, usually camellia oil (Tsubaki-Abura 椿油) with a few drops of clover oil (Chōji-Abura 丁子油). It has a yellowish color, and strongly smells of cloves. It absorbs moisture, but gums up easily when dried. It's also mildly aggressive (which is good for cleaning swords in a less-than-perfect state of preservation), but quite messy when it soaks into the Saya. Mineral oil (Kōbutsuyu 鉱物油) was used from the Meiji era on when mass-production of sword for the Japanese army started - it's cheaper and easily obtainable. It's clear, and thinner than vegetable oil, and doesn't deteriorate as fast; one also needs less of it compared to Chōji-Abura (as Chōji scented oil is called for short).
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Post by Student of Sword on Jan 21, 2012 17:50:03 GMT
My point exactly. Guns as being used today go through extreme conditions because we actually use them in war. Swords do not. In fact, I use far more expensive lubricant for my firearms than Remington. My swords, all I do is cut with them occasionally and put them back inside the house. What extreme condition do swords ever go through today? Case and point, it had been 9 months since I cleaned my swords, they are fine.
I have to go find it again, but there is an history article talking about refining crude to mineral in olden times. If my memory serve me correctly, it was in Europe where people used primitive method to refine crude to light mineral. Modern refinery is more efficient, cost effective and in much larger scale in comparison. But there were mineral oils readily available in pre-modern times.
On a side note, tahamagane is not uniquely Japanese either. The Spanish had a similar process. It was abandoned due to cheaper (but less pure) steels during the Industrial Revolution.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 0:28:46 GMT
Thank you all for the replies. When i read the honing oil bottle saying "prevents rust" of course i wondered if it was good for the sword, but had to research and see what ya'll say.
Going with Paul Chen's sword oil off amazon which seems cheaper or almost the same as than the mineral and gun oils, and to help the business.
Yes, it's all about efficiency, which use to be the core of tradition. The telephone game is a bad game...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 0:30:44 GMT
ineffableone, awesome name, i have an extremely similar screen name lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 2:15:44 GMT
Student, The gun oils are a superior thin film lubricant because they deliver not only rust protection, but they have to lubricate moving parts subject to extreme conditions, all with an extremely thin layer of oil. They have to because, if your oil layer is thick, it will eventually gather downwards due to gravity and clog up moving parts. Same with your saya! The thinner the film, the less oil that will deposit in your saya and gum it all up. By the way folks, that's why it's better to store the swords flat or horizontally, the oil doesn't run down the whole length of the blade and deposit itself at the bottom of the saya. I see no reason to use an inferior lubricant on a costly bit of steel, or waste time doing it all inefficiently. A 10 second wipe with an oily rag is all it takes to protect a sword, and there's no gunk to try to remove afterwards. These are just the reasons why I prefer to use gun oil. I use my sewing machine oil for small machines, and my honing oil for blade sharpening. Whatever works for you!
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 22, 2012 16:29:47 GMT
My 2 cents. It's all about what works. Which there are many options. My big thing for choji is smell. It smells like something that belongs in a room in the house. Most machine oils smell like they belong in a garage. And plain mineral oil, is a bit better, but still smells like it belongs in a medicine cabinet. Now after a few months, when the blade is close to my face, anything else would smell out of place. Again thats my pennies, and other options will do the same and or better job. And don't forget renaissance wax to protect blades that barely get used. much longer twrm protection than oils. Spellcheck is on fritz.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 19:19:28 GMT
Yea buddy, functionality and efficiency. Paul Chen's oil is made for carbon blades, 'nuff said.
Your point about smell i couldn't agree more. Meditation/self-awareness encompasses the senses, smell helps the mental environment and calms the soul. When sharpening your senses, top quality is a must as respect. Without respect you can not understand beyond ones selfish perspective, the lesson can't be learned and affects everything down to your behavior and shows within your projection of knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2012 8:03:44 GMT
The smell of gun oil calms the soul too! :lol:
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 25, 2012 13:43:03 GMT
Hoppes No.9 is approved for aromatherapy in my neck of the woods!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 23:15:57 GMT
Ah, you gotta love the bore solvent, the quaint fragrant smell of ammonia! :lol:
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