The Pipeback Saber

Dave I wanted to thank you for your reply. Let me clarify things. I am a man of a bit of a limited budget and am looking for one training sword and one cutting sword for now.

www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php ... bchtalb6h2

This is the training sword I was looking at. I belong to a group called Adrian Empire and I was thinking of using the Darkwood Sabre in our Rapier fencing. I have asked our marshal about it before and curved blades are fine as long as it is schlager like. Others in Adria have used Alchem sabres with no issues.

As far as the cutting weapon, it would be used as a cutting weapon and possible SHTF self defense (Bullets have run out). Kind of why I would prefer a hand guard in this case. I know an unlikely scenario and in the strict case you are right. A cutting weapon as a test cutting weapon does not need a bowl. That is only if you plan to fence with it. I have experience with cutting with medieval longswords and arming swords as well as messers. I also train regularly, twice a month usually, with rapier bouts in Adria and am working my way up to full steel armored combat.

So while I won't be using this weapon in 'sabre' fencing, it should be legal for rapier fencing in my group and others have used curved 'schalgers' in my group. I do not see any reason why the Darkwood would not conform. I think I will splurge for the CS replica of the 1852 Prussian in the future. You are right about originals. They are more fun to have because it is a 'real' one. But hey, it is an original also! Why damage it with use? Thanks again Dave.

Aye, survival ≠ dueling A machete works just as well as a sword, if not better.

At any rate I have the Darkwood Hutton. In terms of "authenticity" its a bit light (1.4lbs ish) and the handle isn't very huttony. As the label states; a military sabre trainer it is not. I much prefer it to hanwei's radaelli though (I better, it's 3x the cost). Against a weapon of similar weight it'll hold up fine. For example a rapier trainer. I wouldn't use it against a blunted steel weapon though ala a hanwei tinker. My reservations with the darkwood is that the edges are getting quite ragged and its price for blade replacement. Sabre play is not friendly to blades. Also, I suggest taping a piece of rubber on the tip as it does not have much flex.

HOWEVER

If you're a beginner sabreur don't even bother with the darkwood. A complete olympic sabre costs $40 and is sufficient to teach you all the actions of sabre. Sabre as a system is quite simple. Once you possess the control necessary to manipulate a S2000 blade with ease move onto the Darkwood. You may even find you dislike sabre And save about $300


Somewhat condescending Disclaimer stemming from defensiveness:I am a foil & sabre fencing coach. I fence all three weapons (though my epee is pretty crap) in addition to other martial arts. Part of being a fencer is to understand the differences of other weapons. But their are far more similarities. When I pick up my darkwood I do not suddenly forget footwork, parries, distance, all learned through olympic fencing. Do I have to tweak it? Yes.But as Dave says, the core remains the same.

here is a video by Matt Easton about historical training sabers and reproductions. He also hinted that an economic option in the works.

Vincent,

The Darkwood blades need to have the hard corners of the edges rounded over slightly. As general maintenance goes, file the burrs off at a slightly angle toward the 'flat' of the 'edge' and then run the file directly down the flat of the edge for a a few strokes, in order to re-establish the edge. Then come back with something like 150 grit belt sander belt, clamp the blade edge up in a vise, and lightly sand by pulling the belt taut over the 'edge' with the pieces of belt at about a 45 to 60 degree angle over the edge. That will lightly round the corners off and help extend the life of the edge. Certainly, at least in Italian sabre, the parries are to be made with the edge, in the lower 1/3 of the blade, which was left unsharpened on dueling sabers and often on military sabers.

The Darkwood blades are a bit light for Radaelli's practice sabre as outlined in the 1868 version of Capt. Del Frate's book for Radaelli's school, which wants a 750g practice sabre with a 350g blade (essentially 20mm tapering to 10mm at the point, like Parise's blade, most likely (as compared about a 950g troopers sabre). However, in 1885, in Maestro Masiello's book that was submitted in the competition against Parise's book for the headship of the Scuola Magistrale in Roma (Masiello also wrote a mounted fencing book in 189) wants a 610g practice sabre with a 220g blade. My Darkwood blade is 260g, and in the antique hilt parts I have it in, weighs 620g. There are some pictures up of that sabre on my facebook page for the book. Thus, while a little light for Radaellian specific tastes in 1868, or for Parise's "sciabola da terreno" or "fencing on the ground" in 1904, they're absolutely well within the historical norm for Italian sabre fencing for the 1870s-1910s or so.

It is also worth noting that Hutton, in Cold Steel, says little more than 'use a fencing sabre of the type that is commonly in use on the continent', which would be somewhere in this range.

Personally, I'd rather mount a Darkwood blade in the Hanwei hilt pieces and build a new grip for it, than buy a complete Darkwood sabre. I'm sure they get the job done, but the hanwei hilt pieces are much better looking, and for the price I've got a hilt and a spare 'blade' for about the same price as the complete Darkwood sabre. I can get backstraps and ferrules and even grips from US M1902s, but by the time you add a decent thickness steel guard, we're getting right back to the same cost for those parts as for a hanwei sabre. I know the hanwei guards are a little thin, but they're workable.

I would point out, however, that the Italian dueling sabre is no more or less than a range of blade sizes from about 16mm wide to 20mm wide at the base, tapering to about 10mm at the point, curved, and with a false edge. These are the same as the fencing sabre of the time, and were in fact the military practice weapon of the time, and also typically rather close (lighter by just a few ounces) to the officers sabers.

Radaelli was a trooper or NCO with the Monferrato cavalry during the 1859 campaign in Austria, and his mandate from the Italian army, at his school in Milano beginning in 1868, was to train fencing masters in his system, who would then be sent back to their artillery and cavalry regiments.

In that respect, Radaellian sabre was the military sabre system in Italy. It was the basic training method for use of the sabre - and that really shows in the organization of the exercises for the beginning practice, on foot. After Radaelli's death, Maestro Parise was hired to run the new master's school in Roma, and he hired Radaelli's assistants, Maestri Pecoraro and Pessina. Fencing historian of the time, Jacopo Gelli, tells us that the Italian cavalry experimented unsuccessfully for a short time with Parise's sabre system, before abandoning it and returning to Radaelli's sabre.

I hope this helps clarify a few things about Italian sabre practice of the time period.

Chris

Regarding the Hanwei hilts/blades and a Darkwood swap out, I should point out the following as well:

1. Hanwei's Radaelli/Pecoraro/Hutton blades are shipped with a straight tang. This is why the grip/ferrule doesn't sit flat against the guard at the bottom of the grip. The blade needs a slight downward cant in the tang, just past the thickness of the guard. This can be accomplished generally easily enough with a vice and box end wrench, if one is careful, just like any other fencing sabre blade. Or, as with any other fencing sabre, judiciously applied heat from a blowtorch, plus a hammer and the open or closed jaws of a vice, can help you put the necessary cant in for a good fit. You'll also draw back the hardness of the tang and shoulder area of the blade a bit, which may help avoid the very annoying breakage at the shoulder that fencing sabre blades are sometimes prone to. For some reason, Hanwei didn't see fit to actually make the tangs curved as they are on original sabers with backstraps, and as a result you get the poor fit at the guard and the grip that seems to follow the same curve as the blade, instead of neutralizing the curve or better yet, putting the thumb and point on the same line when the weapon is held in hand, which makes for intuitive thrusting.

2. Darkwood uses a beefier tang, and it is also straight. If you send them a drawing of the blade tang, once you get the hanwei blade tang bent to fit correctly, making sure they know which side of the drawing is the edge and which side is the spine, they can make a blade with a tang to match.

3. The Darkwood tang is going to be too big to fit the rubber grip from Hanwei. You'll need to either construct a different grip, or make sure Darkwood knows that you need the actual tang shape/dimensions from your tracing in addition to the cant, so that they can make sure things will fit.

4. The Hanwei Huttons that I have handled are a bit too stiff in the final third of the blade, and a bit too pointy, to be something that I'd feel safe thrusting with, unless I'd modified the point and upped the armor a bit. I'd also recommend the Pecoraro or Radaelli model, as they have the folded flanges at the narrow end of the knucklebow, which helps reinforce that thin area of the guard. Given that the Hanwei guards are a bit thin, they can use all the extra strength they can get.

Thanks for the advice. On second inspection, it doesn't look quite right, so I think I will avoid. I have considered some of his other stuff before, so thats good to know.

To be honest, the only reason I would consider the Argentinian one is because I am too cheap to buy the German one. A local antique store has one for $500, which seems reasonable. I know it handles better, but there is just something about the German one which draws me to it. Besides, I already have the Spanish 1907 sabre. I have not had much experience with antique swords, but I am quite sure that few things will live up to its handling.

Just wanted to post a couple of photos that I have of an original George IV Pattern 1821 Pipeback Saber. I wish it was mine.

Hey guys, the 2 swords are definitely not the same: the one at the top is, surprisingly for its crudeness, the officer's version of the 1898 sword for cavalry (the bottom one is for the troopers).

The officer model is sometimes called the Riccheri sword because it is the name of the general (Pablo Riccheri) that approved it. The hilt is British rather than German and since 1950-60 Argentina's export laws made it mandatory to have their blades and national crests ground off before being sold for export. The blades normally were supposed to have engraving saying Sable de official modelo 1898:





It's not at all a bad sword, the Argentines had their own inspectors who made sure that what they received from the Solingen firms where up to their standards so their blades were strong and agile, this might explain why the Argentinian swords have a better reputation than the original German models. I had one 1898 officer sword and once accidentally hit the tip with a solid wood table, the scratch left there was ugly and deep but the blade had absolutely no nick or scratch. I was speechless.

Both 1898 swords are a joy to have and with some patience you can get them for around 250-400$, IMHO good prices for what they are worth.Just get them in a nice clean shape rather than the one seen on the first link, its shape and overall state is in sad condition...

Thanks for the info. It does bear a resemblance to a British Gothic Hilted sword on second glance. Pretty neat