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Post by wolf_shade on Dec 7, 2011 1:34:21 GMT
I'm new to the concept of custom swords still being produced, my experience with sharp things prior to finding this forum consisted of mass produced lower quality wall hangers. I knew some people made knives/swords, but not at the behest and to the design specifications of others. Given that, I'm curious about various legal nuances as well as general courtesy/ethics items. Who, if a copyright is not filed, owns the design? Is it something that is fleshed out in a contract between requester and forge? Is it something usually handled on the honor system? Assuming (for the sake of further question) that the forge owns the copyright, is it "bad form" to request a duplicate of piece that one finds attractive? Assuming there is no copyright infringement at all, is it acceptable to "steal" design items from another blade(s) to create a custom? (Again ethics/courtesy question over legal here) Do most people when they request a custom piece expect to have something unique? Would they feel slighted if someone commissioned a similar item? Is there no consensus on this and it's largely a matter of each individual's preference? I've seen stated many times that when requesting a custom blade more detail and information is good to ensure you get what you are after. Is there a level of detail at which a forge can expect to be contracted for your work? In other words, if you are pricing from various forges (I assume this is an acceptable practice) is there a point at which a forge may assume that because of the level of information you have given them, you plan to go with them? How much "free consulting" occurrs with design? If a person wants both a durable cutter, and a design that will not provide durability in cutting, is it normal for the forge to communicate the contradiction? Is it normal for a forge to offer adjustments to the design to enhance durability? Is it normal for forges to take what you give them and simply apply your specifications literally and you get to deal with the consequences?
I apologize if these questions are addressed elsewhere. I searched the Beginners Forum and did not find similar topic and checked the Sword Customization, Sword Making, and Manufacturer And Vendors Talk stickies and did not find anything there either.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 7, 2011 2:03:10 GMT
Hi, Wolf; for most of those questions, you can ask someone like Brendan Olszowy, the man behind Fable Blades. However, I have some (very little, but still some) insight into a few of those questions.
With regards to who owns the design, the original creator owns it, regardless of whether or not a copyright is filed; on intellectual property such as that, copyright exists from the moment it is created. Filing a copyright is only required in the event that, should it be infringed, the owner of the work can bring the thief a legal suit. If the design is fleshed out via e-mail or some other method of communication with the forge/smith, the commissioner is generally the one who owns the design, I believe, as they brought the design to the smith. Now, in the case of Brendan, he has a set of designs called "Unmade Fables", which are designs he's sketched out for others to commission from him; in this instance, the smith is the owner, as he was responsible for the original design, not the commissioner.
If the smith owns the copyright to a certain piece, like say, Brendan's NeverNever Grow Up, which is inspired by Peter Pan; it's currently for sale, but if it weren't and you wanted to commission one from him, that would be up to his discretion. In the few times I've talked with him, he was perfectly fine with creating a duplicate (such as the instance when I inquired about his LotR inspired Ranger sword). Some smiths may not be as amenable to the idea, though, so it'd be a case by case bases. Now, if you wanted another smith to do it, it would be best to obtain the original smith's consent before proceeding.
Regarding "stealing" design items, could you be a bit more specific? Are you talking about certain elements, such as a unique guard or pommel, or copying the entire thing and only changing one or two small things so that it's not exactly the same?
Concerning people wanting something unique, that is generally why people go custom; that or they want a functional replica of a certain sword that they've loved. In the former case, I could imagine some people feeling slighted if someone else commissioned the same thing (myself, for instance; I would feel rather vexed if someone tried to commission my Ithin, Mé'aré, Rahien'd'ashan, or The Creed, which I designed specifically for myself; particularly the first two, which I created for my novel), but in the latter case, they often commission movie or novel swords that struck their fancy, so I couldn't see this applying to them.
Woah, that's a lot of questions in one. I'll address the important ones. I know nothing of price matching, because I've never done that except on production swords. I have contacted a smith for a ballpark estimate on what something might cost, but never with the intention of shopping around, so to speak; I went to that specific smith because I knew they were the ones I wanted to do the work when I could accrue the capital to have it done. With regards to the consultation, most custom smiths that I know of are generally happy to answer questions you may have; after all, if you don't ask, how can you know? If you want a durable cutter, but a design that contradicts that, almost any smith will point it out and brainstorm with you how best to preserve the aesthetics while delivering a durable, functional cutting weapon. No forge or smith that I know of will give you what you want if it's not functional and let you "deal with the consequences".
This is just how I see things and not the end all answers to your questions, but I hope that it helps somewhat.
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Awful lot of leaving and joining going on here for me .... And gosh I can't recall doing a bit of i
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Dec 7, 2011 2:25:03 GMT
I commissioned a custom sword from a well known maker. I designed it as a tribute to my S.O. , who was gifting me the sword. A few months later, a sword of a very similar design and the same concept was made for someone else by the same maker. It wasn't exact ... Now , this maker made me a very special price on this incredible sword, I could have easily paid twice what i did...hell I could have paid 3 times the amount , and it would have been fair. If I had paid three times as much, I would have wanted my design to be exclusive from duplication... but as it is, I'm just happy my design helped him get another commission. So I say it is a very case by case basis,,, Anyway, theres only so many ways to put these things together.
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Post by masahiro560 on Dec 7, 2011 13:34:11 GMT
Hurray for legal questions Anyway, at the time of conception the person who had designed the said designs already owns the rights to the said work. From the time of creation the person who had created the design would own the design. Another concept would be "work for hire" where in the employer (The designer) owns the legal rights rather than the employee (The Forge) who had created the work, this is due to the fact that the idea in this situation is conceptualized and controlled and supervised by the employer, the employee simply does his/her job and had not conceptualized the idea. I can't answer some of your ethics questions due to my amoral nature of thought. in my opinion however the subject of being affected by someone having a sword of similar design is largely an individual matter, another situation in your question would be, how did this person get to have a sword with similarities? where did he get the design from? The answer would be either that person conceptualized the idea himself or another individual had shown the designs to this person. Holding the situation in ceteris paribus the possibility is you had shown the designs and then the forge had given a suggestion. Now the question preceding the last two questions was custom= expectations of uniqueness, as discussed by vincent.Therefore the sword you have is in fact unique and has it's own individual characteristics, in your statement you had said similar and not exactly the same. Therefore it is a different design born out of the mind of another thus it is a different idea from yours, hence the sword produced does not breach copyright since it has a copyright of it's own. regarding the forge that owns the copyright, It is up to the discretion of the forge whether a duplicate is acceptable or not, It is not bad-form for a potential client to ask if a duplicate is possible. It is bad-form if a potential-client insists that a duplicate must be made. regarding these questions The answer to these questions are yes, maybe and no It depends on the practice, dedication to quality and work of the said forge. A good forge will be yes to the first question. An average forge will have the answer of maybe. And a forge concerned with nothing but profit will have the answer of no on your second question A respectable and good forge will be no, your average forge will be maybe and your mediocre forge will be yes
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Post by sevrance on Dec 7, 2011 13:56:15 GMT
Regarding who owns the copyright, whoever records the original design on a physical medium is the copyright holder. Let's say Person A, sitting in a bar, describes a sword he just thought of in his head. Person B sitting somewhere else sketches it out on a napkin, Person B is the copyright owner to that design, as he was the first to record it in a durable medium. Copyright is secured the moment it is recorded on physical media, not when you register it with the gov't.
Of course, there are perks to registering, such as being able to sue for attorney fees and statutory damages instead of just actual damages and profits. But, since these are custom works, the profit factor is incredibly low relative to, say, trying to steal the improvised melodies from big name bands with a tape recorder.
Now, there are exceptions, such as work done under contract (with contract specifying copyright ownership; usually the contractor). Which means if Person A sketches a design for a sword while working for Company A, Company A is probably going to be the actual copyright owner, as most contracts specify that works created by employees on company time belong to Company.
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Post by wnydel on Dec 7, 2011 16:00:32 GMT
This is not legal advice or legal interpretation, just an opinion of how I think things should work. Chances are it is up to the individual creating the sword as to what they will or will not do.
What I think is right and the way I would do it is that each custom should be one of a kind. Not to be duplicated exactly. Exactly being the key word. Meaning that if the sword maker was approached by another customer and they wanted an exact duplicate, they should be told no. However, they should be told that something similar (even very similar) can be created. Similar may be darn close, just not exactly the same. Again, that is just the way I would do things. Just because if someone is paying money for a custom, part of the rationalization for spending that kind of money (besides quality,customer input, etc.) is that you are getting a one-of-a-kind. If I found out that someone else had my exact design with no variation at all, would I be upset? It's just me, but maybe a little. Would I make a big deal about it and say anything, not at all. Just my personality coming into play. There are battles in life worth fighting, but I try not to sweat the small stuff in life. Others might make a bigger deal about it.
That said, and this is just me being honest, I see some designs that I want an exact copy of...they just look so awesome, I wouldn't change a thing. Am I being a hypocrite...probably...just being honest lol
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 7, 2011 19:01:02 GMT
People generally come to me with a pretty vague concept of what they want and leave me free to create the design as I see fit for their purposes. In these instances, one of my first questions is "do you want it to be one-of-a-kind or do you want it to be the first of a possible short run?" The answer can greatly affect the price when dealing with bronze work. One-of-a-kind means all the concept work, original sculpting, and molding have to be paid for by the client. First-of-a-series means that I can spread those costs out with the hope that someone else will eventually want the same design.
If the agreement is for a one-off sword, that's what the client should get. It's not uncommon for people to come to me asking me to make a copy of someones sword. If that someone is a character from a video game, then no problem. However if that someone is a person who had their sword custom made by another maker, then no can do.
Say you would like something specific like a sculpted dragon head for the pommel of a fantasy sword. There must be thousands upon thousands of ways to do that, some of which will likely be very similar. You see someone elses dragon design and think "hey I want a dragon too". You can get something done that might have a similar feel to what you saw but still be quite different. No one can own the copyright to the idea of a dragon head on the pommel. They can own their own specific design though.
Some designs are just out there for anyone as well. Like the historical Suontaka viking sword. I made a version of this based on the original with some of my own ideas worked in. Anyone else can make a copy of this because the design is already out there. What you can't do in that instance, is make a mold of mine and reproduce parts from that. Remolding someone elses work is a definite no-no. Not just ethically but legally.
Part of the discussion you have with a maker should be the intended use for the sword and whether the proposed design will acomplish it.
A certain amount of free consulting is to be expected prior to solidifying a commission, and sometimes this free consulting doesn't lead anywhere. Just be respectful of other peoples time. If you aren't serious, don't know for sure if you want a particular maker to make your sword, or are no where near having the funds ready, keep your enquiries brief. I sometimes spend several hours a week going back and forth with someone who never ends up spending a dime. All that time comes out of my own pay.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Dec 7, 2011 19:38:37 GMT
Something I usually try to do on any of my artwork, before I release it into the public either online or whatever, is to mark it in some way that indicates it's my own work and design; a simple "(C) Elheru x/xx/xx" generally qualifies. I'm not too concerned about anybody stealing the design because it's sort of flattering that they'd like it that much... but for courtesy's sake, please ask first, and if they *did* use the design without asking and it turns out essentially identical to what I made or drew or painted, whatever, then I'd say it's a fair example of infringing my own copyright.
Copying another maker's sword is honestly a bit of a grey area. As far as I know, there are a number of situations in which this can fall: --Copying a historical original: No infringement of anybody's rights as long as you don't intentionally duplicate an existing copy of the same sword. --Copying an existing copy of same sword-- for courtesy's sake, generally it's good form to ask the person whose sword it is, I believe, if they're okay with you having a similar sword. However, as it's not *their* design, you aren't obligated to; it's merely good manners. --Copying an original piece: Depends on whether the artist owns it or the customer who first had it made. If the artist owns it and is okay with it, then yes; if the customer owns it, ask the customer. --Copying a piece that has been mass produced, such as the United Cutlery LOTR swords or the Conan blades: Iffy. It's generally better to shoot for a piece with similar aesthetics and design, rather than to make a dimensionally exact copy.
So for example, let's say I want a piece similar to Marc's Laird ring-hilt sword from Odinblades. What I would do here is contact Marc, explain what I want, note how my design would vary from his, and ask if he's okay with me doing this. If yes, great... if not, that's fine... I can always create my own design from similar parameters (large sword, ring pommel).
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Post by wolf_shade on Dec 8, 2011 5:44:51 GMT
Thank you all very much for your answers.
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