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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 26, 2011 21:28:16 GMT
I am kinda having a hamon fascination. I have 3 DH blades now and I was wondering what REALLY goes into producing one, what goes wrong and what needs to be controlled well. Anyone know of any cool sites/videos with some detailed information on how they do it?
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Post by nddave on Nov 26, 2011 23:07:56 GMT
I remember seeing something on smithsonian channel were they showed the a japanese smith claying the blade. they actually showed a lot of different cultures blade smithing, from ancient down to modern production.
I think it was titled just "swords". it had two parts to it. I had it dvr'ed. if you have direct tv do a search, its showed quite a bit.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 27, 2011 0:18:54 GMT
I dont have a dvr anymore >.<
I appreciate the reply man. I'm interested in what exactly the clay is made up with, how they change the shape and pattern and how the heat treating works in general.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Nov 27, 2011 0:28:38 GMT
i dont know too much about it, i was under the impression that whatever shape the clay was laid on the blade was the shape the hamon ended up being
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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 27, 2011 1:00:00 GMT
I am sure thats true, to an extent. I see them lay clay lines across the blade in many directions though as well.. Another thing, I heard suguha hamon are very difficult to produce, so that didn't make sense to me if its just a straight line.
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Post by masahiro560 on Nov 27, 2011 9:32:50 GMT
blurb. suguha hamon is hard to make because hamon doesn't really follow whatever pattern the clay is in. There is a good chance that the smith might end up with a narrow notare if the temperature is not even enough throughout the clay-pattern. There is also a good chance that the smith might end up with hagiire or some other crack on the yakiba because of too high temperature. Masters and good skilled swordsmiths can make the steel follow their will. newbies and average swordsmiths will have to follow what the steel wants. They layed lines across the blade so it would produce 'ashi' It's like the watertight compartments in the titanic If one of the hamon/watertight compartments is breached the others can still function without being affected by the breached compartments.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Nov 27, 2011 13:30:54 GMT
Nice explanation... Do we know anything about the clay(s) they used and why they used what they used? I think in all the specials on sword making i've seen, the claying proccess is never touched on much.
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Post by masahiro560 on Nov 27, 2011 17:55:20 GMT
I think some american swordsmiths used satanite and refractory clay. The Japanese swordsmith's recipes are as they call it 'top secret'
Although the usual mixture was clay, charcoal, stone and other things, I think some of the material used for nugui is also used for the clay mixture, but that's just me. But I think it varied from sword to sword on what the smiths put in the clay depending on what kind of effect they wanted to achieve. And their assessment on what the steel's capabilities are. I think this is why there are signature hamon, one smith just learns to be an expert on that hamon style and not the other pattern.
There was this one japanese smith who sent his clay to another swordsmith. The other swordsmith failed in using the clay effectively and ended up with a lemon.
I forgot my link to that thread though, it's been a long time since i read it.
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jhart06
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Slowly coming back from the depths...
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Post by jhart06 on Nov 27, 2011 18:00:07 GMT
Would make sense I suppose. Curious the hamon is such a large feature of the katana but it's creation doesn't seem all that well documented. Things to study I suppose!
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 27, 2011 23:50:48 GMT
Actually the scientific aspect of a hamon's "birth" are very well documented. There have been numerous articles and much discussion across a multitude of platforms, this forum included, all about exactly what goes on inside the steel with the application of clay during the heating and quenching of a sword blade.
It's a science that is equally an art.
The primary reason you don't get the "exact ingredients" for "clay" as used by your average Japanese smith is because, as has been alluded to already, they each have their very own formula that they specifically use for their own swords, and not everybody can get the same use out of the same recipe, so there's no real point in telling anybody else what "your" recipe is.
The simple side of it is that the clay, whatever it may be composed of, is merely an inuslating substance used to restrict the heating and cooling of each part of the blade in an effort to control the hardness and other attributes relevant to a swords various properties.
The thicker clay, if I'm understanding the theories correctly, keeps the main body of the blade slightly cooler than the edge, with its thinner clay (sometimes none at all) during heating, and holds the heat in the steel longer during the quench. Granted, since most clays are constructed as to "blow off" during the quench, I'm not sure exactly how "long" it stays on, or how much of an impact it really has, but when you take something from 1500 degrees or so down to 150 degrees or so in a span of a few seconds, I'm sure the relative difference is significant.
The pattern is dependent on more than just the line or shape of the clay; the blade's thickness at that point as well as the properties of the metal itself, I forget the exact classifications, but there are steels that are more and less prone to "bleed" heat between clayed areas and steels that only heat so "deep" from the surface, and all this plays into where the steel will harden. The clay must be applied perfectly along a perfectly-proportioned blade, with exact dimensions all along its length for a hamon to come out exacty as a smith intends.
This is the reason suguha is so difficult. One of these things is off and there's a bump in your line, which is not a suguha anymore, and your blade is either scrap or imperfect, depending on your stance.
All that to say...it's not exactly magic and mystery, but it's not exactly found in a cookbook, either. Of course, there are as many sources on "how to" as there are people who would write a "how to" on the subject, and so far, there have been many. I just don't have any specific links at present, so I thought I'd throw out what I could remember from reading here and other places on teh intarwebz.
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Post by Bradleee42 on Nov 30, 2011 4:45:53 GMT
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