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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2011 12:45:12 GMT
:lol: Oh, god, I gotta give you karma for that one, MOK. That was just horrible, but so, so true.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Oct 13, 2011 13:02:37 GMT
yeah they effortlessly get killed
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2011 13:09:07 GMT
Exactly my point! IMO it's better to have two different weapons, each actually good at its own things, than one that's "just good enough" at everything. Tanto? They were usually worn with tachi as the shorter half of a daisho, especially in battle; wakizashi became the short sword of choice later on when the katana gained popularity. Depends on ambient pressure. Air is a gas, with no constant volume. Hence the containment field forming the blade. The plasma within the blade doesn't come into contact with air, or anything else either, until the field is penetrated by a solid object. PS. No, lightsabers are not lasers. It's official canon fact (well, you know what I mean) that the blade is composed of plasma contained within some sort of force field. Of course, this raises some questions like what exactly is the function of the crystals in the hilt, but I try not to think about it too too much...
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Post by Rifleman Lizard on Oct 13, 2011 13:10:46 GMT
One hell of a tangent we've got going here. :lol: From a new guy's sword question to the scientific composition of lightsabers.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2011 13:17:14 GMT
Derezzing a program, you mean...
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2011 13:45:52 GMT
Program, person; what's the difference?
As to the crystals in a lightsaber's hilt, according to canon, they're a focal point similar to a lens (hence why they're called "focusing crystals"), albeit that makes no real sense, to be honest. Do they use crystals because they're somehow more durable than an actual lens? The weirdest part is that they apparently do have a focusing lens, but it's somehow for getting the blade to terminate at a certain length rather than keeping it in a straight line... And this, folks, is why people who have no grasp over scientific concepts shouldn't attempt to design a sci-fi weapon down to the individual parts.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Oct 13, 2011 14:01:34 GMT
The crystal part of lightsabers is such a lame idea especially when you realize that they would have nothing whatsoever to do with plasma. If it was a form of exotic laser, that might do it, but then how is it it doesn't keep going to infinity and loops back? Star Wars is about middling-high tech (there are MANY cultures with greater technology levels), so I don't think they have control over the components of light just yet...
Anyway, another point to lightsaber blades being weightless-- in Return of the Jedi, when Vader throws his saber at Luke, the prop was specifically weighted so that it would rotate around the grip of the saber, not at the balance-point of the lightsaber prop. This suggests that even back in the 80s Lucas had thought of this part.
Regarding the extreme heat released when Qui-Gon was cutting through the Trade Federation battleship doors-- he's got a Jedi shield of some sort going on there. A normal human wouldn't have been able to do it without heatproof clothing.
Shotguns-- I'll grant that an average Jedi could probably block one or two shots from different directions, but as far as I'm concerned the whole 'omnidirectional push' bit isn't a shield, it's a push that hits large objects rather than centimeter-small pellets rushing through the air, which I think you need a proper shield or Force barrier to guard against.
Frankly, while the lightsaber is cool, movie universe Jedi commit a fairly grievous failing in that they don't use firearms except when without their sabers. I realize that yes, the saber is a weapon of last resort, and that they only use it when things really get desperate, yada-yada... but there's something to be said for having ranged weapons to hand! And another failing-- they wouldn't have gone down so easily to Order 66 if they'd been smart enough to wear some darn armour. That's actually something they show Obi-Wan at least doing in the Clone Wars cartoon...
Jedi honestly just seem to have their heads stuck up their arrogant behinds half the time in the prequel trilogy, and that's a fact. Dooku was a refreshing change in that respect...
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Post by Cole Chang on Oct 13, 2011 14:22:00 GMT
Armour never seemed to help the stormtroopers or the clonetroopers!
About the shotguns...you guys seem to think that the Jedi would be standing still to be peppered by lead! They can jump, dash, and dance around the shooters. Just look at Yoda! Try hitting him!
The best way to deal with Jedi is to cut the wages of the writers to make them go on strike. Then there would be no Jedi, no Sith, and no Star Wars....wait, we already have no Star Wars!
Nothing against all the various books out there that talk about what happened after the Emperor was killed, but nothing is really considered canon by the public until it's made into a movie. Sad but true!
With the current ages of all the original cast, it'd be awesome to bring them all back for a new trilogy. It could be set 20 - 30 years after RotJ to account for the aging.
Personally, the only things I really liked about the prequel was QuiGong and Darth Maul, and they both die! :x
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Post by Elheru Aran on Oct 13, 2011 14:47:27 GMT
Stormtrooper armour has actually been seen to work on a few occasions... granted, most people shot wearing it drop right away, but does that actually mean they're dead? Nope. Granted, it's likely... however, evidence is it's better to be shot while wearing it than not As for Jedi and shooting at 'em... didn't work too bad for battle droids or clonetroopers. You fill the air with hot lead (or plasma), it'll find a spot eventually. Yoda is an exception-- a.) he's small and fast, a unusual target, and b.) he's basically the ultimate Jedi Master. He is *not* the 'average' Jedi by any means. While George Lucas did initially talk about making nine movies, three trilogies, I don't see the third happening as he's stated he's not interested in making it and that for him, Star Wars ended with Return of the Jedi. And as it's his property... besides, many of the original actors were fairly sick of Star Wars by the time they were done with it, Harrison Ford especially. It basically ruined Carrie Fisher's and Mark Hamill's careers as well; neither of them ever did anything much after, not counting Hamill's voice-acting in various animated series. So, yeah, it's almost certainly not happening.
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Post by Vestri on Oct 13, 2011 14:54:34 GMT
Nah, the most effective way to kill a Jedi =
1) Pay a parent to give you a little child 2) train that child and raise it, teaching it that they are special, thus growing up with a sense of narcisism and undeserved entitlement 3) give the child a girlfriend 15 years older than him and tell him hes not allowed to date her 4) give that child an ultimate, unstopable power 5) then push the girlfriend off a cliff 6) Result = 25 years of dead Jedis.... 7) Repeat
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Post by lamebmx on Oct 13, 2011 15:03:18 GMT
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Post by Anders on Oct 13, 2011 15:08:57 GMT
I understand that. That's part of my point - what if we stop looking at the exact context and instead try to consider which type of sword has the broadest over-all application?
Fair enough, let's say "absolutely every situation" is too optimistic. Instead, what if we try to consider which sword would be the most desirable weapon in the largest possible number of situations? It doesn't have to be good at everything, but it can still be a good all-arounder.
Also, we shouldn't necessarily assume this sword doesn't exist. In fact, with all the different types of swords that have been developed, it would be logical to assume one of them is the closest to this concept. So, it may already even exist.
Well, suppose rather then swinging it, you use it for thrusting? The rapier was originally designed to be used in narrow allyways where wide swings were difficult, so the thrust gained more importance. Or you could try to find other ways of effectively using a somewhat longer sword in a close-range enviroment, like half-swording techniques, etc. A shorter sword is just one way to achive it.
See, the Lunaman has the right idea here.
Lightsabers do face resistance against dense materials, though. Qui-Gon's lightsaber needed time to push through the blast door, Luke's lightsaber bounced off Vader's armor without cutting very deep, and when Yoda threw his lightsaber into a clone, the blade got stuck in the armor rather then cutting through him by its own weight. So it's not like those things go straight through anything without any effort.
I always wondered why nobody bothered to carry one of those blaster-proof Gungan shields around.
I dunno. When using a flashlight, how often do you aim it towards yourself by accident? I once tried to make a lightsaber simulator that would handle sorta like the real thing - basically, it had a carbonfiber rod for a blade and the POB was in the center of the grip. It felt really weird to swing around, but I never felt worried about hitting myself with it.
Honestly, I always thought you were in greater danger hitting yourself with a real sword because they have momentum in their swings that require a certain strenght to control.
These days? I think there's like five or six of them, at least. The EU writers keep thinking of new ones to give the Jedi a hard time, pun not intended.
Only one of them (phrik) is canon to the movies, though.
Let's be fair: There were like 10.000 Jedi in the entire galaxy vs several million clones, and they were taken by surprise as well. Plus, it was long since established that while the Jedi were formidable, they absolutely weren't invincible.
I think that if you want to be able to rely on your weapon in any given situation, and are not one for designs of compromise, you will need to carry more then just two swords.
If you are able to settle for just two, then congratulations: You've probably found the Jack-of-all-trades sword we've been discussing here. (Albeit in two models of different reach.)
Well, that's not entirely true. There's actually a whole Star Wars canon heirarchy, the order of which decides what is canon and what is not and to what degree:
G Canon: George Lucas canon. This is everything that occurs or is mentioned in the six main movies, and everything else created by GL himself. The highest ranking canon. T Canon: Television canon. Anything that happens in the CGI Clone Wars movie and cartoon franchise. Presumably, the hinted-at future live action TV series will end up here as well. C Canon: Continuity canon. Most of the Expanded Universe goes here: novels, comics, games, cartoons, etc. S Canon: Secondary canon. Stuff that's usually ignored because it doesn't fit into the main EU continuity - a lot of older works that make no sense in the current context, for example. N Canon: Non-canon. This is all the stuff that isn't recognized as canon by Lucasfilm. Stuff like parodies, AU stories, deleted scenes, etc.
The way it works is, anything aside from N Canon is considered legit canon unless contradicted by one of the higher canons. For example, the portrayals of Mandalorian society in the regular EU was considered canon since the movies did not contradict them. However, the Clone Wars TV series portrayed the mandalorians differently, and since the TV series recieved higher canon ranking, that portrayal is the canon one.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2011 15:18:43 GMT
Lucas would have been fine with 3 trilogies if only he'd done them in order. Granted, the whole "Luke, I am your father!" thing wouldn't have had quite the impact on the audience if people knew before Episode IV that Vader was Anakin Skywalker; maybe it's just me, though, but I would have willingly sacrificed that little twist for more overall cohesion in the series. Plus, with the Clone Wars, don't make them some random bounty hunter: make them Jedi clones. That way, Obi-Wan Kenobi from IV-VI isn't just some old Jedi, he's OB-1, first in a series of clones of a deceased Jedi Knight whose last name was Kenobi; that would explain why he can't remember R2 or C3P0 despite having traveled with them for 13 years. Besides, if you need an army, which do you choose? A mook or an elite warrior priest? Seriously, give the Jedi clones a blaster and a saber, with all their Force powers, and you'd have an army that wouldn't lose. Then, after Order 66, you do away with the saber and the Force as relics of the Jedi, something you want to suppress, as well as prevent possible uprisings, and bam! Generic mooks you can crank out a dime a dozen. Make a helluva lot more sense than a bounty hunter, not to mention explain the different heights of the troopers in the original trilogy, since the Jedi they were cloned from would have conceivably been of varying heights.
As for the Force Push stopping shotgun pellets, a Force Push is a solid wave of psychokinetic energy, so if it can throw something as heavy and large as a battle droid, it can push back something as small and light as a shotgun pellet. Plus, if they can deflect lasers with their lightsabers thanks to Force enhanced reflexes, they can certainly deflect bullets. But, as Cole pointed out, a Jedi can use those same enhanced reflexes to jump out of the ring of guns.
Also, with regards to Jedi being stuck up in their choice of weapons, I can kind of agree, but I'd like to point out that, for the most part, just about everyone who got killed during the Battle of Geonosis (where their failing to have ranged weapons really came to light) was a Niman practitioner; Niman is called the "Diplomat's Form" because it's very balanced by combining the respective strengths of the five previous forms while taking none of their weaknesses; comments about it are that it's not particularly strong at anything, but not necessarily weak at anything. By the time of Geonosis, it was the standard form practiced by Jedi Knights (Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda, and Mace Windu are exceptions, practicing Soresu, Shien, Ataru, and Vapaad, respectively; they're also the only ones that really survived), so you've got a couple hundred guys who aren't weak at anything, but aren't exactly good at anything, either.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2011 15:24:08 GMT
Yes, against dense materials. Vader's armor could conceivably be one of several anti-lightsaber materials (why else add armor to a bodysuit that's only purpose is to keep you alive?). Have you ever seen Yoda's lightsaber hilt? That thing would get caught on any number of things if you tried to throw it through something, so it's not the blade that got stuck, it was the hilt.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2011 15:30:11 GMT
Don't forget the million billion video games, including frigging Wing Commander! And he's always been great.
Seriously, take a look at his IMDB page. No, he hasn't done many live action feature films since Star Wars, but dude hasn't exactly been hurting for work, either...
The real reason it isn't going to happen anytime soon is Lucas's gigantic swollen ego. The original trilogy is still pretty awesome because he was just the idea guy, and let other people with talents more suited to it do the actual scripting and directing. The prequels... well, you see what happens when he thinks he can do everything himself, given enough CGI.
PS. Oh, and by the way, RELEASE THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY ON DVD ALREADY, DAMNIT! "ENHANCED" SPECIAL EDITIONS DO NOT COUNT!
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Post by Elheru Aran on Oct 13, 2011 15:45:03 GMT
Some days, I pull out some obscure fact from Star Wars or comic books or something and think "man, I am such a nerd." Then I find threads like this and realize I don't have anything to worry about. I kid, guys... I like having the company Anyhoooooo... I wonder what the criteria for *testing* an all-purpose sword would be... /more or less trying to return to anders' question/
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2011 16:33:27 GMT
Okay, guys, how's this? 34" overall, 27" blade, 4.5" grip. A solid hand-and-a-half sword thanks to the fishtail pommel and the blade has a diamond cross-section with reinforced point for piercing with a slight curve for just about any kind of cutting you can think of without affecting the thrusting abilities. It's got a d-guard for added hand protection, but not so much as to be detrimental (also a great bludgeon). The blade's got just enough reach to be used in just about every situation. There's really not much else to say aside from the fact I whipped this up in probably 15 minutes, so don't judge the quality too harshly.
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Post by Neil G. on Oct 13, 2011 17:18:44 GMT
I still think that the best "all rounder" is a simple type XVIII - something like the Henry V sword. It's short enough to be able to be used in confined quarters, it's got enough edge to be a great cutter, it's got enough point to be useful in piercing mail, it's double edged and can be used for draw cuts and hews with either the long edge or the short edge. It's fast yet solid... It gives up a bit of reach, but not so much that you're bringing a knife to a sword fight.
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Oct 13, 2011 18:12:12 GMT
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SanMarc
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Post by SanMarc on Oct 13, 2011 19:20:28 GMT
Man.... I love this site!!! I still think that a Ko-Katana works great for the OP's needs. May the swarzt be with you...........
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