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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 1:01:14 GMT
you can describe anything almost infinately. IF I describe a fuller you'd ask what a blade is. If I describe a blade, you'd ask what a hilt is. Basically you have to KNOW english in order to understand, which is the point I'm trying to make. In order to know about japanese swords, one would have to have knowledge of japanese terminology, which is a whole lot rarer in america, at least, than english is.
I haven't insisted anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out fallacies in naming. I find it to be more of an infatuation with japan rather than practicality that leads us to call japanese swords by their original terminology instead of one the vast majority of people could understand without years of training in the linguistic arts. I find it just as silly as a japanese person who is interesting in sword typologies of the west referring to them in english rather than his native language. Unless he already is fluent in english and doesn't really have to teach himself how to speak all over again.
It took me about 30 minutes to understand oakshott typologies. Know why? Because its in a language that I understand. However interesting in learning the appropriate terminology of japanese swords, it will always be several times as hard as english swords. Again, we don't refer to the parts of, say, a two handed sword in german do we? We don't refer to a scottish claymore in original scottish do we? It is absurd to keep the same names for the sake of the language rather than simple pacticality.
The word katana has come to refer to a japanese longsword. End of story. Everyone associates that term with that particular sword.
I don't expect the word to cater to me. I expect it to cater to what is most practical and efficient rather than what can be done with twice the effort and half the simplicity.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 1:07:28 GMT
It's no harder to l;earn the proper Japanese terms than learn the typologies. Earlier in the thread you said And since then you have proceeded to try to explain how to describe Japanese swords to one that knows how...and insisted the world should adapt to using less precise english terminology. I'm sorry...it's never going to happen. Seems to me that you are making this up. I don't think I've ever corrected you on how to explain japanese swords, at least in the importances I've only pointed out that you are providing too much informaton in a "strange" language I know full well that you know more than I ever probably will on the subject, and I wholeheartedly admit that. I am pointing out what you don't seem to realize, being already proficient in the terminology and therefore, it must seem clear as water for you. For us who DON'T know japanese, it is all a bunch of words that we've never heard of. Which was why this post was made, wasn't it? To try to understand that which we could not understand ourselves without learning from someone who knows the language...? I learned oakshott typologies quickly because I didn't need anyone to clarify points that I didn't understand. I didn't need someone to translate for me, or rely on someone to teach me how to read. I know that my description of a kriegsmesser is not one you'd get from someone like Peter Johnsson or another expert like him, but it does convey the basic meaning of the sword. I don't see in problem in not explaining the exact dimensions of the fully tanged pommel. Or not saying the exact width of the guard. And I'm not dismissing cultures as dispossable. I'm dismissing complications as disposable. Done debating for now at least, lets let this stand as another of our awesome debates It was fun bringing our points of view out
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 2:22:32 GMT
Seems to me that you are making this up. I don't think I've ever corrected you on how to explain japanese swords, at least in the importances I've only pointed out that you are providing too much informaton in a "strange" " "uno kubi zukuri" is most easily described in your first sentence "style often found on wakizashi cut down from naginata" " I'm not making that up. And that does nopt come close to describing it. the point is , it takes every bit of that information to say unokubi in english...saying less, is not saying unokubi. Which I've nicely provided only to have someone tell me why I shouldn't use the terms. This is ridiculous. You learned them because you wanted to.They are represented with ROMAN numerals...and definitions of the thing that numeral represents are given same with nihonto terms...they are represented by Japanese words...and english definitions of the things those words represent. Same as the typologies. Sure we could say blade collar instead of habaki...but that's inaccurate as that is not it's function. It is designed to fit in the mouth of the saya, so that the blade hovers in the saya , and does not touch the wood, helping to prevent rust and corrosion. You see blade collar doesn't say that at all...but habaki does. Uh, No it doesn't. Because I don't know what one looks like or the geometry of it...and your description did not make it clear to me. If I want to know, I still have to google it. Look the point is the referances are there for anyone to easily learn if they wish...and Japanese swords are much easier to understand using the proper terminology...it's easier. It's like saying " Eifersucht" Instead of "the 10th song off of the album Sehnsucht by the band Rammestein"
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 2:33:48 GMT
[ This is ridiculous. You learned them because you wanted to.They are represented with ROMAN numerals...and definitions of the thing that numeral represents are given Its not a matter of whether or not I like it. I find katanas to be attractive as well. Its a matter of whether or not I can understand what I read. About the eifersucht comment (I just have to ;D) Saying the word eifersucht doesn't mean ANYTHING to someone who hasn't heard of rammstein. Saying it is the tenth song of sehnsucht, would mean something however. Same thing with habiki. Doesn't mean anything to noe who doesn't know japanese. See? Meh, alright, you do have a point, although I'm ot sure I agree with it. Thats why I'd prefer if this dropped. We both haave said our pieces and I don't think muc more can be gained. Cool with that ?
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 3:17:11 GMT
[ This is ridiculous. You learned them because you wanted to.They are represented with ROMAN numerals...and definitions of the thing that numeral represents are given Its not a matter of whether or not I like it. I find katanas to be attractive as well. Its a matter of whether or not I can understand what I read. About the eifersucht comment (I just have to ;D) Saying the word eifersucht doesn't mean ANYTHING to someone who hasn't heard of rammstein. Saying it is the tenth song of sehnsucht, would mean something however. Same thing with habiki. Doesn't mean anything to noe who doesn't know japanese. See? Meh, alright, you do have a point, although I'm ot sure I agree with it. Thats why I'd prefer if this dropped. We both haave said our pieces and I don't think muc more can be gained. Cool with that ? Yeah, I'm cool with that. Just one more time to try to make you understand something... Notice on my description of a habaki I used Saya mouth? There is a Japanese term for saya mouth, it's koiguchi. However it is not more descriptive than saya mouth and only needlessly confusing. Certain things can be expressed in English terms acceptably...for example: nakago = tang : On these type references I use English as to not be overly confusing...but on some aspects only the Japanese terms accurately portray the meaning. Habaki does not equal blade collar, so habaki is the best word for it koiguchi does equal saya mouth, so saya mouth is less confusing and the best term. Capice? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2007 3:18:35 GMT
Out of blatant curiosity, what does 'u-no-kubi' mean, literall?. I only ask because knowing what terms mean helps me associate those terms with certain things, for example, the Jo Suburi in Aikido.
I could either memorize all 20 of them, or I could learn a few terms: Jodan - a high guard position, tsuki - thrust, gedan - sweep, gaeshi = turn out, 'Uchi' - strike
From that I know that 'Tsuki Gedan Gaeshi' is a thrust followed by a turning sweep, and 'Tsuki Jodan Gaeshi Uchi' is a thrust followed up by moving into a high guard position and then turning the jo and striking. In fact, virtually all suburi can be defined with those terms, along with 'uchiro', 'migi', and 'hidari'.(to the rear, right, and left; respectively). Certainly a lot easier to learn a few terms and their definitions than to memorize 20 unique names and get them all mixed up with which movement goes with which name.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2007 3:20:28 GMT
Oh, and naming something doesn't necessarily have to be a reference to it's purpose. Habaki = Blade Collar is a fine comparison, because face it: It's a collar around the blade. Yeah it has a practical purpose with how the sword fits into the saya(=scabbard), but it's still a 'collar', around the 'blade', now isn't it?
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 3:31:10 GMT
Ho capito, il mio amico
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Post by admin on Feb 1, 2007 3:33:13 GMT
Folk on the forums here tend to (at the least) lean towards either one of two camps -> Japanese swords or European Swords (I'm find of a fan of ALL types of long sharp pointy things, you know, jack of all trades and master of none... ) The problem arises for the Western Sword fans, when reading something aimed at fellow Japanese sword enthusiasts who know their swords, is that it can be alienating to read something that uses entirely (unfamiliar) Japanese terminology - which is why I especially like Marcs review of the PK where he clarifies much of the Japanese terminology with some English descriptions. I think for the SBG in general (not so much the forums, though it does to some extent apply), this is the kind of thing I am aiming at. A lot of folk who visit SBG for the first haven't even got a clue about the difference between a wallhanger and a 'real' entry level sword - never mind about any Japanese descriptions or Oakeshott Typology... I recall when I was first getting started with SBG I was impressed by some words from Phil Elmore from the Martialist Online Magazine (one of my favorite sites btw!) in his review of the PK... He said: "I'm not going to bother with traditional terminology here, because those who know their katanas will not be impressed and those who do not will find the references needlessly confusing".While this doesn't work 100% for SBG, I think that using both side by side is the best way to teach a beginner. The reality is, that if you are talking about a Japanese sword at anything from intermediate level and above, you aren't going to say 'scabbard' - its 'saya' (why does this remind me of a song: "you say scabbard, I say saya.." - sorry, couldn't resist). That's just the way it is, partly because Japanese swords are a (more or less) unbroken tradition and they have a lot of words already there - and to try and translate them into english is to reinvent the wheel. So as you get deeper into it - you find that each nuance has a corresponding expression in Japanese already there - so you use it! ;D Sorry for the long post, and I'm not sure if this makes sense, but to sum up - 'that's just the way things are'! Play friendly! - Paul
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 3:36:49 GMT
I'm not going to bother with traditional terminology here, because those who know their katanas will not be impressed and those who do not will find the references needlessly confusing Play friendly! - Paul Interesting... And who's not playing friendly ? *furtively sheathes my rondel dagger* just joking
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 3:44:46 GMT
Out of blatant curiosity, what does 'u-no-kubi' mean, literall?. I only ask because knowing what terms mean helps me associate those terms with certain things, for example, the Jo Suburi in Aikido. I could either memorize all 20 of them, or I could learn a few terms: Jodan - a high guard position, tsuki - thrust, gedan - sweep, gaeshi = turn out, 'Uchi' - strike From that I know that 'Tsuki Gedan Gaeshi' is a thrust followed by a turning sweep, and 'Tsuki Jodan Gaeshi Uchi' is a thrust followed up by moving into a high guard position and then turning the jo and striking. In fact, virtually all suburi can be defined with those terms, along with 'uchiro', 'migi', and 'hidari'.(to the rear, right, and left; respectively). Certainly a lot easier to learn a few terms and their definitions than to memorize 20 unique names and get them all mixed up with which movement goes with which name. U-no-kubi = cormorants neck the cormorant is a large bird like a fishing crane. The big body , thin neck , wide head represents the blade type...mune is wide at the base, narrows in the middle , and flares at the tip.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2007 3:53:42 GMT
(why does this remind me of a song: "you say scabbard, I say saya.." - sorry, couldn't resist). Let's call the whole thing off... ;D
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 3:54:33 GMT
Oh, and naming something doesn't necessarily have to be a reference to it's purpose. Habaki = Blade Collar is a fine comparison, because face it: It's a collar around the blade. Yeah it has a practical purpose with how the sword fits into the saya(=scabbard), but it's still a 'collar', around the 'blade', now isn't it? Not really.We see it that way when we are unfamiliar with it, and it's purpose. In English we could use the term "sharp" to describe anything with an edge. However we divide sharps into catagories based on their practical use i.e. knife, razor,scissors,clippers,saw So why use collar when we can better describe it as what it is , it's like saying ," hey hand me that sharp over there" instead of saying give me that butcher knife. because the habaki is foriegn to the west we seem to think collar is a good word for it...it isn't. Every word in english is is a referance to a thing and it's purpose. In the case of collar, it is a thing that enrings something, and it's purpose is to join....not at all accurate for a habaki
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2007 6:11:05 GMT
'sharp' is an adjective, not a noun, so it's grammatically incorrect to say 'hey hand me that sharp...'. It'd be fine to say 'hey pass that knife' in place of 'butcher knife', or, in context, 'pocket knife', 'fillet knife', 'machete', etc. because they're ALL knives.
Not every word in english is a reference to it's purpose. For example the 'shoe'. Linguistically, things get their names from one of two things: A reference to it's looks/sounds/function, or just an arbitrary name we decide to give it. Like 'shoe', or 'tree', 'wind', 'hair', 'metal', etc. Even the very word 'sword' is just an arbitrary set of phonetic sounds we are taught carries a certain meaning.
According to my trusty dictionary reference:
col·lar /ˈkɒlər/ –noun 1. the part of a shirt, coat, dress, blouse, etc., that encompasses the neckline of the garment and is sewn permanently to it, often so as to fold or roll over. 2. a similar but separate, detachable article of clothing worn around the neck or at the neckline of a garment. Compare clerical collar. 3. anything worn or placed around the neck. 4. a leather or metal band or a chain, fastened around the neck of an animal, used esp. as a means of restraint or identification. 5. the part of the harness that fits across the withers and over the shoulders of a draft animal, designed to distribute the pressure of the load drawn. 6. an ornamental necklace worn as insignia of an order of knighthood. 7. a narrow strip of leather or other material stitched around the top of a shoe as reinforcement or trimming. 8. Zoology. any of various collarlike markings or structures around the neck; torque. 9. Metallurgy. a. a raised area of metal for reinforcing a weld. b. a raised rim at the end of a roll in a rolling mill to check lateral expansion of the metal being rolled. 10. Machinery. a short ring formed on or fastened over a rod or shaft as a locating or holding part. 11. (in iron or steel construction) a rigid frame for maintaining the form of an opening. 12. the upper rim of a borehole, shot hole, or mine shaft. 13. Also called bracelet. a narrow horizontal molding encircling the top or bottom of a furniture leg.
Though 'piece of metal that encompasses the lower portion of the blade of a sword' is not present, there is a clear 'encircling' pattern in all those definitions that makes a lot of sense in context to a sword. By further specification, i.e. the adding of the prefix 'blade' to form the term 'blade collar', this creates a very good description of a habaki.
Then there's terms like 'fuller'. In japanese it's 'hi' or 'bo-hi'. I'm not sure to the japanese meaning, but IIRC it references the type of tool used to spread a groove into iron, i.e. a sword blade, but nobody really knows that unless they research it. I looked it up in the dictionary as well, and you know what the result was? "a groove running along the flat of a sword blade." As far as I know, fuller means fuller and that's that.
In the end, I can see both arguments. Rammstein's has merit: we don't use german or italian terms to refer to swords of those cultures, we use english. Where english has been insufficient, we've borrowed words from other languages(or more commonly, just root words), which have become anglicized to mean what they mean. Yet we use japanese terms for japanese swords. I'm pretty sure a good number of people use the japanese terms in an elitist way, to sound smart. Not everyone, as I'm sure there are hundreds who just love the subject.
The fact of the matter remains that japanese terms, esp. in the quantity and detail which you've demonstrated; clearly intimidate newcomers to the point where they don't want to learn it all. Milk before meat is an eternal principle. we don't expect babies to just start blabbing about with perfect grammer and great vocabulary,we start small and simple, and then go from there. To expect newcomers to just instantly master all those japanese terms is a bit harsh. Particularly as japanese and english are so far removed from one another that there are no common roots or even familiar sounds to deal with. It's literally like trying to learn a code, with some vastly different terms, some very very similar terms, all to describe differences in blade geometry which are incredibly similar. The differences are majorly just nuances as far as I can tell.
At least with oakeshott typologies, we get two groups of swords, X through XIV which are designed to oppose mail and primarily cut, and then type XV through XXII, which are primarily thrusting swords designed to oppose plate(with many of the blade types from XVI on being good at both cut and thrust). There's a logical progression and grouping to them. Then there are the subtypes like XII vs. XIIa, or XIII vs. XIIIa. The 'a' almost ubiquitously means a larger version of the type, suitable for two hands rather than one. So just by knowing what the 'a' refers to, we instantly can recognize a dozen different variants of swords when we see them. I mean, if we called european swords things like "Hawk-beak blade" or "chamferred edge tapering blade" or things like that, it's one thing. But we've gotten rid of words which can be confusing and misleading, and instead we have a very mathematical base for our sword references.
My 2 cents.
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 7:10:31 GMT
'sharp' is an adjective, not a noun, so it's grammatically incorrect to say 'hey hand me that sharp...'. It'd be fine to say 'hey pass that knife' in place of 'butcher knife', or, in context, 'pocket knife', 'fillet knife', 'machete', etc. because they're ALL knives. Wrong, sharp can be a noun, an adjective or a an adverb. when used as a noun it refers to a needle or knife. It is not grammatically incorrect, only gramatically vauge, and that's my point. Fine switch the word to tool, and pretend you are in a shop. "pass the tool" "which one" " The long one with a handle that has a skinny shaft and a crosstip that we use to manipulate a repeating cyclical inclined plane fastening device." Or Screwdriver. See , that's so much easier right. That's BS the only thing shoe is defined by is it's purpose...footwear. Of course socks are footwear too, and bbots , and mocassins...so we use the more descriptive term of shoe...that describes it's form and function, like habaki does. Incorrect. Those things all mean what I said collar means...something which encircles and fastens. A habaki does not do this...this is not it's function. if anything it;'s a blade seater.. There's no excuse for using inaccurate terminology,when we don't have to. It's laziness or ignorance. So why do we call it a fuller. Lets call it a blade groove...that describes what it is better than blade collar describes habaki. For that matter, why is a ricasso a ricasso? A scabbard a scabbard? Clearly blade container is better. For that matter why blade? why not longish selendrical sharpened metal rod? A pommel a pommel ? Who needs these confusing terms.Any one who is't familiar with swords says what the devil is a ricasso. What's a pommel? Why is it a scabbard , i heard sheath? Why sword....that's confusing..let's call it a long knife No, that's germanic word ..lets go back to the long metal rod thing. We can call a pommel a counterweight. Wait , that's still too confusing... I know we'll just call EVERYTHING a "thingy" that should be much less confusing Come on...where do you think all these words come from? Pommel , Scabbard, dagger, messer, ricasso,quillion,ecussion,fuller? Theyr'e all adapted and adopted from the language of the people that originally put them on weapons. I feel the same way about all the western sword terms you guys bandy about. Mortuary,swept hilt, clam shell, schianova we can go on and on. Oakeshotte typologies...all just as intimidating. they're like greek to me. But I learn. Your point about english and Japanese being so different is my point... That is EXACTLY why the Japanese terms are so important. Spoken like someone with no understanding of Japanese swords or blade geometry's . The geometries are all adapted for different uses of cutting, thrusting ,dueling etc. just like western swords. Wow talk about confusing and intimidating.That's WAY more complex than Japanese classification.There we deal with three different length catagories. And a handful of cutting geometries and point geometry variables. And the name describes the sword.- Shinogi zukuri no O kissaki Shinogi - ridgeline on flat of blade Zukuri - sword no - with , or of O - Long , or large Kissaki - point Ridged sword with long point. Much easier than Type xviia with modified k cross All that is confusing to me as a newcomer...you can't expect me to grasp all those XX IIVV 's and a bc 's at once can you? Anything that is unfamiliar is intimidating and confusing. No one is going to gain an understanding of Japanese swords calling a habaki a blade collar it's completely inacurrate Like calling a pommel a round thingy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2007 9:37:08 GMT
The melding of languages isnt anything new, as Japanese Swords become more and more recognized in the rest of the world its terminology will become part of the English language just like the french rapier is, the complexity comes because english and japanese are the two furthest languages from each other so its harder than say the european romantic languages..
For example, the melding of french words into the english language, the word rapier is essentially french, fiance is french, aide-de-camp, attache, cliche and the list goes on...
Languages are dynamic, and the opening up of the world will make them more so....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2007 11:30:39 GMT
What is strange in Roman numerals?They are widely used in western culture
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Post by admin on Feb 1, 2007 13:20:29 GMT
I know we'll just call EVERYTHING a "thingy" that should be much less confusing ;D LOL (The scary thing is that I do this myself sometimes in daily life!) Anyway, I can't see much more being gained from this thread... (I'm not going to lock it yet, but its heading that way as it's taking on a slight tone of - Japanese vs European swords - which is pretty pointless) The reality is that at the intermediate to advanced levels, there are already Japanese words used to describe very subtle (and not so subtle) parts and characteristics of Japanese swords that would probably need new words in English to describe them properly. English approximations give you some idea at the beginning yes, but there's no reason to use English once you know the correct Japanese terminology as its more accurate... Just my two thingys worth...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 7:28:30 GMT
I have need of a little translation that may sit nicely in this thread. Just to break from the euro/ Japanese "thingy" were getting into. Jigane - ? Omote - ? Kasane - ? Ura - ? Uchikomikizu - ? Suguha - ? Just thought fellow enthusiasts could help me before I go to Japanese- translation site? Cheers .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 9:00:58 GMT
omote and ura are the sides of a sword, the omote is the side that faces away from you when you wear the sword, the ura is the other side.... Jigane is the area of the sword between the ridgeline and the hamon Suguha is a straight hamon Kasane refers to the blades thickness and Uchikomikizu i believe is battle scars of one sort or another... If it helps the bible of Japanese Sword terms is Rich Steins gloosary at www.geocities.com/alchemyst/glossry.htm
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