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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2007 20:07:54 GMT
I decided to start a new topic not because I want to share my knowledge about katanas and other japanese swords but because I don't have almost no info about it So for my rather short participating in this great forum community I realized that there are many people who dedicated their lifes for Musashi rather than Lichtenauer Maybe someone would take a greate effort of preparing a short basic guide of japanese swords with pictures,drowings with names of the parts of the sword(all those tsubas,motahabas,akihabas,yamahas ;D ) Of course we can find the information on the internet..but wait-this forum is on internet too and not everybody is so much interested to make a long study and browse several hours to find uncertain info...
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Post by rammstein on Jan 30, 2007 20:11:00 GMT
I too am interested in learning this. It is quite a hassle trying to pick up the japanese lingo by using the terms in a sentence....
SO far all I know is as follows:
Katana - duh... Saya - scabbard (I think?) mekugi - wood pins that hold blade in hilt (possibly confused with below) menuki - decorative figure between wrap and hilt.
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 30, 2007 21:25:56 GMT
Here you go ** Japanese Unit Conversions ** 1 shaku = 11.93 inches (30.30 cm) 1 shaku = 10 sun 1 sun = 1.193 inches (3.03 cm) 1 sun = 10 bu 1 bu = 0.119 inches (0.303 cm) 1 bu = 10 rin 1 rin = 0.01193 inches (0.0303 cm) Note: 1 shaku is commonly approximated to be 12 inches (1 foot) EDIT to add: Moto is the base of the blade , saki is the tip. So if mihaba is the Heigth (width) of the blade, then motohaba is the width at the mune machi (see diagram) and saki haba is at the yokote. Same principal with motokasane ...only thickness. O = large Chu = medium Ko = small Thus O-katana or Ko-katana Or ko-kissaki or O-kissaki sugata is the general blade shape. Some sugata are shinogi zukuri, shobu Zukuri , u-no-kubi zukuri...there are more
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2007 22:21:20 GMT
Thank you It deserves karma reinforcement
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Post by rammstein on Jan 30, 2007 23:02:13 GMT
Just a question, not trying to provoke a confrontation (I really am just curious). I thought of this a while ago:
Why do we refer to the parts of a japanese katana with the historical japanese terms? We don't really refer to, say, a german messer's parts in german do we? Also interesting to note, swords like a zweihander, bidenhander, etc. are all just german catch-alls for a two-handed swords, yet they are often refered as seperate designs.
Quite an interesing topic!
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 30, 2007 23:17:18 GMT
Just a question, not trying to provoke a confrontation (I really am just curious). I thought of this a while ago: Why do we refer to the parts of a japanese katana with the historical japanese terms? We don't really refer to, say, a german messer's parts in german do we? Also interesting to note, swords like a zweihander, bidenhander, etc. are all just german catch-alls for a two-handed swords, yet they are often refered as seperate designs. Quite an interesing topic! Because some things are easier done in Japanese terms. If I say u-no-kubi zukuri , it is instantly understandable, but if I try to describe it in English it takes several hundred words.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2007 20:54:37 GMT
Just a question, not trying to provoke a confrontation (I really am just curious). I thought of this a while ago: Why do we refer to the parts of a japanese katana with the historical japanese terms? We don't really refer to, say, a german messer's parts in german do we? Also interesting to note, swords like a zweihander, bidenhander, etc. are all just german catch-alls for a two-handed swords, yet they are often refered as seperate designs. Quite an interesing topic! Most people call a japanese sword just katana even though katana just means any type of sword. So it's not so different.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2007 23:01:28 GMT
Also, assuming we're only using the modern versions and most common dialects of the languages, all Japanese sword parts can be referred to soley in Japanese, while European swords would require the use of a multitude of different languages that would be too cumbersome to digest and remember (I have a hard enough time remembering Japanese sword terminology ;D).
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Post by rammstein on Jan 31, 2007 23:22:41 GMT
Because some things are easier done in Japanese terms. If I say u-no-kubi zukuri , it is instantly understandable, but if I try to describe it in English it takes several hundred words. Maybe it's just me, but it seems quite a bit simpler to describe what it means in our native language with a few words longer, than say it in a language that the majority wouldn't understand (And therefore ask questions, leading to your explaining, regardless ;D?)
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 31, 2007 23:46:00 GMT
Because some things are easier done in Japanese terms. If I say u-no-kubi zukuri , it is instantly understandable, but if I try to describe it in English it takes several hundred words. Maybe it's just me, but it seems quite a bit simpler to describe what it means in our native language with a few words longer, than say it in a language that the majority wouldn't understand (And therefore ask questions, leading to your explaining, regardless ;D?) Yep , it's just you.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 31, 2007 23:49:43 GMT
heh ;D I figured something along those lines
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 31, 2007 23:57:04 GMT
If I say uno kubi zukuri , those who are interested enough to care know...
If not I must say....
Style often found on wakizashi cut down from naginata. Blade begins from Machi as regular shinogi zukuri, with or without koshi hi. Shortly into the blade the blade transfers to an area of high shinogi. In this section the shinogi-ji narrow approaching the mune ...providing the weight advantage of a hi without sacrificing lateral strength. At the mitsukada the blade transfers back to shinogi zukuri geometry for the kissaki. This geometry may have any size kissaki,or shape, . It may have yokote or not. This geometry makes an excelleny cutting blade with a wide cutting surface.
Then from there I have to explain all those other terms, and they take just as many words...
Those that are interested in Japanese swords take the time to learn the terminology ...simple as that.
One word in Japanese can say what it takes paragraphs to say in English/ some things do not translate at all.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 0:02:10 GMT
couldn't the same detail be applied with ANY word?
for example, how many trillions of details can be applied to the word "sword." I'd say quite a lot, in order to go into an in depth description and convey every nuance of info.
"uno kubi zukuri" is most easily described in your first sentence "style often found on wakizashi cut down from naginata"
on an irellevent note, that sure does seem interesting, taking a polearm and making an effective shortsword from it!
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 0:08:12 GMT
couldn't the same detail be applied with ANY word? for example, how many trillions of details can be applied to the word "sword." I'd say quite a lot, in order to go into an in depth description and convey every nuance of info. "uno kubi zukuri" is most easily described in your first sentence "style often found on wakizashi cut down from naginata" on an irellevent note, that sure does seem interesting, taking a polearm and making an effective shortsword from it! No it is not most easily explained in the first sentence. that d oesn't begin to get across the point of what unokubi zukuri is. that could leave it as hira zukuri, shinogi zukuri, mohara zukuri... in fact the first sentence is the least important sentence in the description . It's really no different than all those Oakenshott XXXVVIIIIXCVI typologies. Why not say " really long one with a really pointy tip"?
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 0:19:38 GMT
A quote from a nihonto authority
" The point is that there are a *lot* of very *specific* elements of the blade that can come into discussion, for which there simply are no parallel English terms. It has nothing to do with learning Japanese; most Japanese don't know this brand of specific terminology. It has everything to do with the complexity of the subject and the need for a descriptive terminology. It would be far more confusing to invent several hundred new English words, instead of using the worldwide standard, which happens to be whatever the original word is.
There are equivalent cases in the study of western arms and armor. In order to speak about them in anything more than the very vague, general sense that is possible with conversational English, it becomes necessary to use morphologies (like Oakeshott's and Peterson's classifications) and original language names (like schiavona, falchion, etc.).
To use the example of a two-handed German sword, that's too vague. Do you mean a kriegsmesser? A landesknecht? An Oakeshott type XVIIIb? The destinction between these types is significant, but there are no simple English words for them and to define them in English takes several sentences at the minimum. "
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2007 0:23:10 GMT
It's really no different than all those Oakenshott XXXVVIIIIXCVI typologies. Why not say " really long one with a really pointy tip? That's exactly what it's like. However, to me classifying sword blade types by numbers(roman numerals) which get progressively bigger with relation to the common eras(generally speaking) in which we see examples of those swords in european history is easier than remember a slew of words which all seem very very similar to me, in a language as far different from my native language as you can get. Not that I'm complaining. I pick up the foreign lingo in martial arts pretty readily enough, as I did with Oakeshott typologies. I'm sure with not too much more study I could get pretty acquainted with the japanese blade types. I'm just not as interested in them as I am european ones(besides, all of what I can afford that's japanese is a bastardized production version of the shinogi-zukuri style of blade[just about every japanese blade sub $1000], so it doesn't matter much anyway).
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 0:24:57 GMT
you basically can, with some degree of minor details.
e.g:
Type X - first true medieval sword type, well defined fuller, parrelled edges type: Xa - a shorter, broader type X type XI - long type X with a narrow, porly defined fuller
etc.
the landsknechte were a mercenry and, not a sword. That's akin to calling a kata a samurai ;D
A kriegsmesser is a specific, long single edged, curved blade with a two handed grip.
one of these takes very long to describe, however I could easily write essays of information on any thing mentioned above. However, that isn't anywhere near necessary for getting the point across.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2007 0:28:35 GMT
A quote from a nihonto authority It would be far more confusing to invent several hundred new English words, instead of using the worldwide standard, which happens to be whatever the original word is. But the japanese term has no meaning to someone who doesn't know what it means, whereas if the term was described in english, one could deduce what the speaker was refering to. Also, parts of a schiavona aren't described in italian, are they? Talk about REALLY confusing
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 0:36:02 GMT
you basically can, with some degree of minor details. e.g: Type X - first true medieval sword type, well defined fuller, parrelled edges type: Xa - a shorter, broader type X type XI - long type X with a narrow, porly defined fuller etc. the landsknechte were a mercenry and, not a sword. That's akin to calling a kata a samurai ;D A kriegsmesser is a specific, long single edged, curved blade with a two handed grip. one of these takes very long to describe, however I could easily write essays of information on any thing mentioned above. However, that isn't anywhere near necessary for getting the point across. It must be, because your short description of kriegmesser doesn't come close to explaining to me what it is. Also a unokubi is a specific shape . If You say kriegmesser when refering to a sword, it's the same thing as saying unokubi.... katana is a meaningless term like sword. When you say katana...it's like saying sword...instead of saber...etc. If you want to understand ballet , you learn some french. If you want to understand Opera...it helps to know some Italian. If you want to understand nihonto, learn the terms. I'm not going to argue about it anymore. I don't understand the Oakenshott typologies...but when you use one I look it up intead of trying to convince you to explain it in plain language. It's all respect really...the whole world is not meant to cater to you, or I. If it's from another culture, it's rude to dismiss that cultures terminology as disposable.
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Feb 1, 2007 0:43:58 GMT
OK...now, I'm not familiar with swords or english...
Explain to me what is a sword. What is a fuller? What does it mean for the fuller to be well defined?What is the basic shape? How long is it? How is it used? What is medieval?
It's taking the time to learn Rammestein
It's no harder to l;earn the proper Japanese terms than learn the typologies.
Earlier in the thread you said
And since then you have proceeded to try to explain how to describe Japanese swords to one that knows how...and insisted the world should adapt to using less precise english terminology.
I'm sorry...it's never going to happen.
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