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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2011 19:52:07 GMT
I recently found this sword that I believe to be a japanese short sword that my grandfather owned and I was wondering if anyone could give me the history of the sword that I own and not just the history of the sword. I will attach pictures. Thank you, Shaun
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2011 16:18:22 GMT
Does anyone have any clues to the history of this particular sword? and is it even a Japanese short sword?
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Post by Neovenetar on Sept 29, 2011 16:34:29 GMT
Well it's Japanese, I'm pretty sure about that...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 3:33:49 GMT
You wouldn't happen to know anything about this particular one that I own do you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 3:42:56 GMT
Hey upgrade, welcome to the forum. I don't know why one of our resident katana experts hasn't shown up and verified whether this sword is real or not yet but I'm sure you'll find out soon. The sword that you have is indeed a wakizashi of some sort. It might be a legitimate antique, but I'm not sure how old it is or how much it might be worth... that's a question for someone else. I am however reasonable certain that it is a "real" Japanese sword and probably worth something even if it's not an antique. I don't see anything that suggests that it might be a made in China fake (I'm not a spotting a hamon but I don't recall them ever being visible through that kind of aging). Do you know where your father got it or how long he had it?
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Post by jeimuzu on Sept 30, 2011 4:20:11 GMT
this looks to me about 80 years old roughtly? I cant read the Mei as I think its in Kanji. Nothing matches my charts....but the shape of the katana proves me to be Shobu zukuri. Not very common for a wakazashi but its a well known shape. Im 80% sure this is in fact a Nihonto.....20% is telling me this could be a very good chinese fake. While I dont see anything that will say its a chinese fake, I do not a see a hamon. Not even in the Kissaki. So it could just be under the rust or it never had a hamon. If it doesnt have a hamon, then it might be a chinese fake.
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Post by Vue on Sept 30, 2011 6:05:28 GMT
Try posting your sword over the Nihonto forum and I'm sure you'll find they're more than knowledgeable plus they could even translate the Kanji for you. www.militaria.co.za/nmb/ Your sword is an authentic piece that's for sure and the geometry is called shinogi-zukuri and not shobu-zukuri, it may look like a shobu to some but that's because the Kissaki has lost it's shape due to the age and the current condition. I can't tell you much more than that but from the look of the quality saya, I would say there's a good chance that it might belong to someone of some status or possibly a merchant. A little advice on making the signature more visible, rub some white chalk on to the signature with a soft cloth and hopefully the signature will be a little more apparent. In the mean time please do not try to alter the blade in any shape or form and please do not handle the blade with bare hands as it may cause the steel to oxidize/ rust. To store the blade safely just give it a coat of Choji oil and store it in a well ventilated place, sword maintenance kits can be purchase very cheaply but please try to get Japanese Choji-oil instead of the Chinese counter parts. Good luck with your research, its a nice piece.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 23:47:55 GMT
Thank you very much for all of this great info!! My grand father brought this back from World War II when he was stationed over in the Pacific. I will take all of your advice and I appreciate it greatly!!, because I know very little about swords. Ill try to get a better picture of the name on the handle posted this weekend.
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Post by shoboshi on Oct 1, 2011 16:17:53 GMT
I would agree that it's an antique and not a fake and that the geometry is shinogi.
I'm no expert, but the quality of the saya looks to have been pretty good in it's day and I've never seen a fake with that kind of detail or pattern. Most of the ones I've seen have fancy fittings that have been heavily oxidized to make them look old. The blade also has an elegant shape to it that is usually lacking in fakes, particularly the continuation of the sori into the nakago. There is also some fumbari (might be mixing up my terms here), that swelling of the blade in front of the habaki, which I've never seen on a fake.
No hamon or yokote visible, but I don't think that's unusual for an old rusted piece.
I would take the previous advice and post this on another board where there are more knowledgable folks on antiques.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 17:02:57 GMT
Vue's appraisal of the wakizashi in the 6th post on this page is reasonable accurate as far as my experience extends. You appear to have a better-quality sword and since it was your grandfather's, that says something good right there.
My dojo's Sensei could probably appraise it very accurately, since that's what he's an expert in. I recommend finding a reputable dogo as close to you as circumstances permit, and go from there with that.
Be... Aware: Rip-offs are everywhere, and a few sword dealers are dishonest. Learn what you can from an expert like the one I know. Otherwise, you can lose money from ignorance.
--Lee
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 17:23:10 GMT
I would agree you have an authentic antique Japanese wakizashi.
Just a couple of thoughts for it's care and value.
Please refrain from cleaning it with anything. Only a couple drops of light oil on the blade to slow some of the rust. NEVER remove rust from the tang part. No scrubbing, wire brushing cleaning etc. This will detract and devalue the blade.
To get a better picture of the signature.....shake some baby powder, flour, corn starch or other similar inert powder onto the tang and wipe off the excess. The engraved kanji will retain some powder for you to get a decent photo. Then clean/remove the powder with a quick rinse and dry.
Steve
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 25, 2012 20:36:47 GMT
Well as the OP hasn't visited since Oct 2011, I guess this was useless but I tried anyway.
My guess would be Mitsu ? Yasusada. However I'm very doubtful about my translation. Best bet would be posting in translation assistance at NMB like suggested earlier. Nakago seems to be in bad shape which makes it much harder for amateurs like myself. As I believe my translation incorrect I can't do more research on it. If we would know where you lived we could possibly give some information who you could show it to.
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Post by Lee Bray on Apr 26, 2012 5:08:45 GMT
Third kanji is fairly well worn but I think the mei reads Osafune Sukesada. That third kanji might be Yasu, Jussi, but I couldn't find any Yasusada in Hawley's that signed with Osafune. Looks like we're missing a couple of kanji at the beginning as well. It should read Bizen (no) Kuni Osafune or Bishu Osafune. Sukesada was often used on the Kazu-uchi mono, or mass produced blades, of the Bizen school in the 16th century. There were a few very good smiths called Sukesada but they would sign with a title or their full name and would generally be dated as well, which this sword doesn't appear to be.
So a genuine Japanese Nihonto, signed Osafune Sukesada (Bizen Osafune school), dating from approx. 1500- 1575 and probably a mass produced blade made for the large battles being fought at the time.
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Post by lamebmx on Apr 26, 2012 10:36:26 GMT
is a hunk of rust, send it to me for recycling. /joke
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 26, 2012 12:57:56 GMT
I think you got it correct Lee. Now after your translation I see Osafune in the beginning, so the third would most likely be Suke.
As this is beginners forum, I'll try to do some explanation.
The first 2 kanji, Osafune, is a town. However I remember reading that Sue Bizen smiths took it as a part of their name. So I guess they would call themselves Osafune Sukesada, instead of Sukesada from Osafune. What Lee is mentioning in the earlier post is the missing province Bizen or Bishu. And I don't recall seeing Osafune Sukesada without the Bizen no Kuni or Bishu, however the 2 character Sukesada I remember seeing. I also remember reading there might have been over 200 smiths signing Bishu / Bizen no Kuni Osafune Sukesada, and as this appears to be without a date, it's impossible for an amateur like me to narrow it down.
As the nakago seems to be ubu (original), more experienced people might know something based just on nakago characteristics. I'm seeing kiri yasurime and nakago-jiri looks to be kurijiri. I tried to do some research and I believe both would fit Sue Bizen blade.
However if the blade was in better shape people with experience could narrow it down by characteristics. But DO NOT do anything to the blade yourself, I'd recommend taking it to a skilled polisher, as this sword did belong to your grandfather I think it would be nice to restore it to full glory.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 15:33:25 GMT
Yes, I agree, absolutely. My Sensei appraised a sword in front of me, and as part of the process, he took special tissue paper and a special charcoal pencil and rubbed an impression into the paper to get the inscription. This told him who made the sword and about when it was made.
Yes, you can do it that way as long as the tang isn't changed or damaged, of course. Learning as many "kizu" (flaws and imperfections) in a sword or tanto is necessary so as to be able to get your money's worth from a selling party.
--Lee
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 15:59:57 GMT
As a general reply to the remainder of the post: Your knowledge of Japanese inscriptions is certainly greater than mine. I've seen a book describing, in fluent Japanese, over 15,000 swordsmiths who were ever active in Japan. Your personal appraisal points out to me that I should go looking for English-translated literature describing swords and tantos, hopefully at the public library. Your interesting explanation was well worth reading, however, Jussi.
You are very correct in saying that an experienced weapons worker who has dealt with Japanese weapons would be the one to see about restoring the sword. Restoring a sword properly! can double or triple its value.
--Lee
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Post by lamebmx on Apr 26, 2012 16:36:58 GMT
:evil:
The Horror of the Necro Thread!!!!!!!
:twisted:
(sorry just HAD to say it :mrgreen: )
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 19:48:21 GMT
Okaaaaaaaaay. I'm glad you did. I think. :shock:
--Lee
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Post by lamebmx on Apr 27, 2012 9:54:47 GMT
lol, a thread on another forum had 3 total posts. about 6 years later someone necro-posted, and its now up to 5 pages of respones. even the OP took part in it. roflmao
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