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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 3:30:50 GMT
Living in Alaska probably limits my options but I do know there are both kendo and kumdo classes available here. My question is what would you expect to learn from a kendo class? I ask this because I would also be interested in kata and eventually be able to handle a live blade without hurting myself or others. I also do not wish to have other training requirements such as karate. My body is just not up to something that rigorous.
Is kendo going to offer the skills I am seeking and other than some expected bruises, how difficult is the practice? Any comments would be appreciated from practitioners.
Thanks
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 6, 2008 4:00:20 GMT
Kendo is more of a sport-based Martial Art. While it is still VERY formal and traditional, the type of fighting skills you learn are less focused on live-blade application (like Kenjutsu) and more focused on quickness, reaction, spirit, etc.
Kendo is less practical then Kenjutsu from the standpoint of using a katana correctly and effectively because it is not a killing art. Kendo is much more practical than Kenjutsu from the standpoint of general stick or sword fighting because it is not focused on choreographed kata, rather it is fully free-form and full-contact.
In my opinion: Kendo is a lot more "street" applicable, whereas Kenjutsu is a lot more "battlefield/duel" applicable.
It just depends on what you are aiming for. Try both!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 7:20:15 GMT
Slav's hit the nail on the head there papabear. +1 I practice kenjutsu, which is koryu and kata-based and I don't wear armour, only keikogi(jacket, and split-skirt). The kata can be broken down into pre-forms which form the basis of handling, cutting-with and safe manipulation of Japanese swords. While in training I practice hitting my opponents weapon away with a bokken(wooden katana), in a reallife scenario I would be aiming for targets that would seriously maim you, or kill you (i.e. neck, temple, shoulder, wrist, leg, abdomen) with a shinken. Mine is a learned skill that has no winner or competition, there is no coloured belts or badges. Slav is a kendoka(and a good one at that , as he is a practitioner of kendo. Kendoka train with a shinai and wear bogu(armour) over their kendogi, the shinai is looked on as its own weapon but is a precursor to using a shinken and the armour is to absorb the force of your opponents blows upon your body. It is limited by its own regime to only strike at limited bodily targets. This is because as it is looked upon as a sport, points can be gained from placement, speed, form, targets-hit, e.t.c so as the kendoka with the more point-advantages is the 'victor'. The only real differences that I find prevelant are that kenjutsu is how one would have trained with a Japanese sword in days-of-old. When in a time of modernised warfare kendo puts a milder focus on the art, and strays from its sharper precursor to form a sport that can be enjoyed by nearly all ages able to hold a shinai. Kendo is more people friendly, I will admit, alot of people that come to my kenjutsu/jodo class get a little overwhelmed with our structure and the next time I see them is as kendoka( they train after I train).
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 6, 2008 8:19:36 GMT
Chop,
Between Kendo and Kenjutsu, which do you think is more practical and applicable in terms of self-defense?
I have never trained in Kenjutsu, but it seems to me that Kendo would better carry through into general self-defense. (I'm not just saying this because I happen to do Kendo.) It makes sense in my mind that the complete free-form "unpredictability" of Kendo really forces training in quick and effective reaction to the point of second nature. I know that this is also true to an extent with kata combinations, but IMO the added practice of actually striking your opponent in training builds a complete reactionary instinct that is invaluable in the context of self-defense. Also, Kendo movement and weapon-control seems a lot more accomodating to a variety of "street-scenario" weapons (i.e. a stick, baseball bat, 2x2, whatever.)
I'm not trying to start a "this art is better than that one" discussion. I am simply wondering about your honest impressions within one context.
Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 10:15:51 GMT
The reason kuminoda-sensei( and Nishioka-sensei, and Shimizu-sensei before that !) teaches Jodo to the Japanese Police forces, is as a combative take-down against opponents armed with shinai. Years ago in Japan, people(students mostly) when disatisfied with the establishment would form mobs and go after the police en masse. The rioters would don motorcycle helmets, arm themselves with shinai from the uni training dojo and charge at the police. The police riot squad needed a weapon that was superior to the shinai, in length and ability, and could be carried and harnessed even quicker. The Jo was the answer, as a shortened staff( 50") it can be harnessed at both ends, does not have to be swung to be deadly, but most importantly has an extra 10 inches on a standard shinai. Its length is its main advantage, where the Jo can be utilized as a sword, the shinai cannot be easily utilized as a staff. The Japanese Police forces still send recruits to Sth Korea for Riot training due to student unrest that is not so prevelant in Japan anymore. Jodo, and the Jo I feel today is the most effective in a street scenario. The Jo could double as a walking stick, and is used in a similar fashion to a sword more than a staff. Please ask one of your senpai about Jodo, it is a very fast art which it has to be to go against a live blade . Kenjutsu is a very interactive way of learning the do's and don'ts of swordsmanship, all kata does is show you the basic movements. If it were to be applied to a street scenario, you would take the knowledge of your kata and already know what works and where to look for openings. In theory, it would not be fair on my behalf to attack someone with a bokken even in self-defence, as I would be looking to 'end it' and this my friend might send me to gaol for a long time. You are right slav, kendo is excellent for speeding up your reaction time but its focus is very formalized. Do you practice alot without your bogu on ? In SMR, we do have weapons contact called Ichi komen. This is where you drive your opponent down the dojo with technique first, then strength second. I have seen fellow jodoka break bokkens with applied strength and also knock weapons out of others hands. We learn not just to hit or cut, but every little detail of blade placement, correct grip, stance e.t.c as in days-of-old your LIFE depended on this. As you said in an earlier post " kenjutsu is a battlefield art" this is so, as in a 'street scenario' I can guarantee you your assailant would not fight fair ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 13:47:01 GMT
Chop,
Where would Iaido fit in with all this stuff? Would this be good to learn more as a supplement to one of these, or can it be affective on its own. Iai does not concentrate as much on the spar, as it relies on surprise, correct?
Farmer
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 6, 2008 16:58:07 GMT
Ah yes, I agree that jodo would be the best!
Between Kendo and Kenjutsu, I guess you're saying that one's attitude towards their training and it's practical applications is more important than whether the art itself is a do or jutsu. And that both can be equally applied to a "street" situation as long as one is smart enough to intuit when and in what ways to break form while still utilizing the raw instinct that their art has given them. Right?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 18:11:12 GMT
Living in Alaska probably limits my options but I do know there are both kendo and kumdo classes available here. My question is what would you expect to learn from a kendo class? I ask this because I would also be interested in kata and eventually be able to handle a live blade without hurting myself or others. I also do not wish to have other training requirements such as karate. My body is just not up to something that rigorous. Is kendo going to offer the skills I am seeking and other than some expected bruises, how difficult is the practice? Any comments would be appreciated from practitioners. Thanks It depends on the school. There are kendo schools that teach only sport kendo, and there are others that teach other stuff. The first iaido class I ever took was being taught in conjunction with a sport kendo school. And I have no idea what or how the kumdo school teaches. Do some research, and share their websites with us. That would be a good start.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 20:04:11 GMT
As said by slav, and (or will be) others, kendo is more of a sport. The kumdo (korean haidong kundo?).. I am not familiar with it, so can't help with that. But what I've heard is that both styles are quite alike. Anyhow, the kendo is less practical than the kenjutsu, at least for my kenjutsu (at least than katori shinto ryu.Which btw, slav, consists of many "outdoor" or "street" based scenario).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2008 4:23:47 GMT
If it's kata and working with a live blade you're looking for, without rigorous physical training, then I would say that kendo is not for you. While kendo kata does exist, and should play a major role in kendo training, it is typically neglected and only studied for promotion exams. I know this is a problem in the US, and I'm pretty sure it's just as true, if not more so in Japan.
I would say iaido or kenjutsu would be what you're looking for.
As for kenjutsu being more effective than kendo...well, let's just say that every Japanese police officer is required to practice kendo.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2008 4:40:57 GMT
Chop, Where would Iaido fit in with all this stuff? Would this be good to learn more as a supplement to one of these, or can it be affective on its own. Iai does not concentrate as much on the spar, as it relies on surprise, correct? Farmer No so much surprise but getting the cut right, everytime. Iai is a great accompanying art to jodo, but as its own art is still highly effective. Most Iai kata is usually done in tandoku dosa(solo but under instruction) and is highly focused on drawing and cutting. Ah yes, I agree that jodo would be the best! Between Kendo and Kenjutsu, I guess you're saying that one's attitude towards their training and it's practical applications is more important than whether the art itself is a do or jutsu. And that both can be equally applied to a "street" situation as long as one is smart enough to intuit when and in what ways to break form while still utilizing the raw instinct that their art has given them. Right? Right, no art and no-one is perfect. All we can do is train hard all our life and hope to be the best we can, and in true wax on, waxoff tradition "Hope you will never have to use your skills" in such a scenario. Just train hard, and to make your training realistic mix it up occasionally. In my school(SMR) we play " Guess that kata/ the madswordsman" . This is when the kata is not chosen beforehand but is highly improvized to add realism to the kata training. Neither shidachi, or uchidachi knows the next move of their opponent so one has to be extremely aware of what is going on around you. While years ago slav when we didn't have to go to work and you just trained all day, every day, it was more because your life depended on it with this you could understand why it would have been termed as " The Way", but now it really is only "the Art" as there is an element of choice in society where most of our arts are not 'needed' anymore in conflicts, except in a sporting capacity.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2008 16:36:16 GMT
Do some research, and share their websites with us. That would be a good start. alaskabudokan.com/kendoclub.htmalaskakumdo.comThese are the two URL's for the classes I am aware of where I live. The Kendo class does offer Iaido. From what I am hearing and for what I want to accomplish which is technique and proper form, I think I am leaning towards Iaido based of the comments.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2008 17:24:48 GMT
My sensei tells me (relaying comments from his sensei) that kendo and iaido complement each other very well. If you want self-defense, look for a ju-jutsu school.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2008 15:55:31 GMT
I would have to agree with the others, for what you say you're looking for, Kendo is the wrong direction. From what little I do know of Kendo, it's generally not geared towards learning to use a live blade. Think of Kendo as Japanese fencing, but they use the shinai rather then the skinny fencing foils. For what you're looking for I'd look at and research arts such as Kenjutsu, Iaido and the like. The art I study, Shinkendo, is another one that uses kata, movement, sparring, and tamashigiri (test cutting with live blade). From the main site www.shinkendo.com/ I didn't see there are any officially registered dojos in Alaska. But you can go on the forums linked from the site and see if someone is teaching it out of someone elses dojo, or sometimes a high ranking student of a Sensei teaches at their own dojo. Good luck in finding something for you. Working with a JSA has been a lot of fun for me, and great exercise.
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