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Post by f.m. on Sept 19, 2011 5:20:56 GMT
Alright I've collected some ancient arms over the years, now its time to buy my first piece of armor. Im wanting to buy the body armor first and radiate out from there. My expectations are high, but relatively speaking, so is my budget.here are the requirements. Somewhat lightweight(say under 20 lbs) Functionally strong, able to withstand slashes, stabs, and impacts. I should be able to trust it to protect me. Desired but not needed: Historically accurate appearance(ancient thru medieval look would be cool but modern appearance is fine) Im crafty and don't mind making it on my own but the search for something to make it out of has been unsuccessful. Thoughts? I know my expectations are high but theres got to be something out there..a modern stab vest would be a good choice but the coverage leaves a little to be desired..
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Post by Neil G. on Sept 19, 2011 12:45:28 GMT
I think most reproduction Lorica Segmentata comes in at about 20 pounds. That's coverage for your torso right there... might not be a bad place to start. For more coverage you could try something like this... www.ringmesh.com/product_p/lt210.htmI don't know how resistant it'd be to thrusts, but it would certainly help with cuts.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Sept 19, 2011 13:45:12 GMT
Ringmesh is a nice product but it's not the most historically accurate. Warning: infodump ahead! Just trying to be helpful though The thing about armour is, it's good to have but you'll get the best protection AND comfort from having a good foundation garment. A gambeson under mail, arming jacket or doublet under plate, will help cushion the weight of the armour, insulate you from all that metal, and add an extra layer of protection. I don't know about armours other than European all that much, but I would definitely recommend purchasing a foundation garment. Second: For mail, the Get Dressed for Battle (henceforth referred to as GDFB) line from Hanwei is actually halfway decent when it comes to beginner's armour. A hauberk of their wedge riveted mail, AB2484 to be exact, is $382.95 from KoA. Expensive? Yes. But you're getting decent beginners' quality, AND you won't have to make it yourself. Don't get me wrong-- mail, even riveted maille, isn't all that hard to make yourself... but it's going to take bloody forever. And yes, it really should be riveted. Butted maille will hold up to approximately *one* blow, and then the rings spring apart and if that bit of your body gets hit again, not only will your protection be significantly reduced but any loose rings still hanging on to the chain may very well be driven into your body. Afterwards, you'll have to put it back together as well. So riveted is better... You may want to use a haubergon rather than a hauberk; it's a little shorter so you'll need more protection for your legs. Note that one of the nice things about mail is that it's customizable to a degree. You can 'tailor' it with only a few tools, and save money that way. For example, GDFB mail shirts come in two sizes-- made for a 48" chest and for 60". If you have, say, a 50" chest, then you could buy the 48" and some of GDFB's mail rings and a riveting tool, look up a tutorial online (there's a bunch of them) and just open up the shirt, rivet some more rings in place and presto! You've got armour that fits you ! For the more cost-effective options... GDFB also makes an 'European Breastplate', AB0089, that's only $84.95. It's only a breast, not a breast-and-back, but it's decent forward protection and is in fact recommended for beginners in a number of longsword schools as a cheap start. Helmets are a bit of a crapshoot, but in general shoot for anything made of 14-gauge steel or better. Again, GDFB has quite a good number of decent beginners' helmets-- the Archer's Spangenhelm for $66.95, for example, or the Nasal Spangenhelm for $74.95. Jawbone sallet for 121.95, bascinet with houndskull visor for 138.95... For your arms and hands, well, these bits are honestly pretty fiddly. Definitely for the hands at least you really should purchase a well made set of gauntlets; cheap gauntlets are NOT going to work very well. Marshal Historical makes some on KoA for around $200, however, that may do okay. For arms, GDFB's Milanese arms are probably decent; haven't heard anything much about them in general. They're $220ish for the full set and $152 for the point-tied (strapped onto your arm rather than enclosing your arm in armour) at KoA. For a more old-school solution, metal splints on top of leather, GDFB's 14th-century splinted arms are a bit under 200. They do come with shoulder protection as well though, which the Milanese arms lack(you have to buy the shoulders separately on those). Leg armour is where KoA kind of falls short. Just aren't that many options there. This is partly because with mail, you don't have much leg protection to start with aside from mail breeches starting around the 11th or 12th century. Then you do have splinted leg protection transitioning into plate, but the thing is that at least with greaves (lower leg protection), they HAVE to fit well, or they'll just get in the way by dropping down on the top of your foot or heel, restricting your movement. You can check out the Milanese greaves and upper legs, however, for around $500 total. There are of course options other than Kult of Athena. A lot of people like to work with European armour-makers, especially as this can result in well made and fitted armour. However, it's definitely not cheap, especially when you consider shipping. A few links: www.bestarmour.com/ (offering free shipping right now... ignore the cheesy 90s style website) armstreet.com/ (offers a LOT of options) You can also get a lot more information on MyArmoury and the Armour Archive forums. Hope all this has helped
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Alan Schiff
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Post by Alan Schiff on Sept 19, 2011 16:53:21 GMT
Elheru gave really good advice there. You can also take a look at Mercenary's Tailor and Icefalcon Armory, both in the US. www.icefalcon.comwww.merctailor.comHope that helps, Alan
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Post by Neil G. on Sept 19, 2011 16:57:47 GMT
That's a ton of good info there Elheru.
My prime consideration was f.m.'s request that it be lightweight more than anything else. Trying to get historical type armor under 20 pounds is a tall task and really, the only thing that I could find that matched that, was vaguely historical and could actually take a hit was the ringmesh stuff. I figured at 7 pounds for a full hauberk you could easily put another 10 pounds into a heavy duty gambeson and maybe a tabard to cover up the lack of historical accuracy of the mesh...
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Post by Elheru Aran on Sept 19, 2011 17:36:17 GMT
Well, that's true... lightness is definitely good. The main issues I have with it are that stainless is obviously not historically accurate, and neither is welded, although there's some debate about if some makers of maille used forge-welded rings instead of punched for solid rings, but that's not the issue... Anyway, another problem I do have with welded is that I don't know how much stronger it is versus riveted. If it's just as strong, great. If not, then that may be an issue; most people can't just re-weld sprung rings, it's easy enough to re-rivet rings that have popped apart at the rivet. If they broke elsewhere, well, they'll have to be replaced entirely, but that's a given. Then also, stainless is a bit weaker than mild steel; how would it hold up against a few good whacks even with a blunt? The lack of corrosion is a plus-- definitely a BIG plus-- but the strength part of it worries me. If fm just wants to look good at a Ren Fair every now and then, that's one thing, but it sounds kinda like he might want to train in it at some point seeing as he pointed out he wanted 'functionally strong' and to be able to 'trust in it'. Of course, I want an authentic Gothic suit at some point, likewise functionally strong-- but I'm not very likely to ever take longsword classes or anything in it, so go figure Anyway, Merc's Tailor is definitely good; their stuff is a bit on the plain side though IIRC, which makes sense as it's supposed to be 'munitions grade'. Good for fighting in and learning medieval combat; maybe not so great for looking pretty, but I don't think that's a big problem for most people who buy it. Haven't heard of Icefalcon before today... hmmm!
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Post by Elheru Aran on Sept 19, 2011 17:54:50 GMT
OK, took a few minutes to look over Icefalcon. They look to have a lot of stainless steel, aluminum SCA type armour, although there's some proper steel stuff in there. Probably decent enough for learning how to fight and what not... not necessarily my taste, but tell ya what, FM-- if you like them? Go for it! It's up to your taste, really...
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Alan Schiff
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Post by Alan Schiff on Sept 20, 2011 15:54:24 GMT
Yeah, Icefalcon seems to primarily market to SCA fighters. As far as stainless vs. mild steel armor goes, functionally there is little or no difference, as far as I've ever heard. The reason stainless isn't good for swords is because of its crystalline structure (or something like that. I forget what the actual structure of steel is called). Stainless has larger "crystals" than carbon steels, making it less likely to flex properly. I've never heard or seen anyone say that stainless is less functional in a piece of armor. That being said, though, in general mild steel is easier to work with and most armor pieces are cheaper in mild steel than in stainless.
For historical accuracy mild steel is closer to the iron/steel used in medieval armor than stainless is, although not exactly the same. If you would prefer less maintenance over being more historically accurate (or less historically inaccurate), then stainless or plated steels would work.
Ultimately it comes down to what you are really looking for. Lighter weight armor generally is going to be less effective (i.e. functional) than heavier armor. On the other hand, the heavier "functional" armor we often see marketed today is, by and large, heavier and thicker than a lot of armor from period. A lot of reenactment societies have high requirements for armor, and as such much of the armor available off-the-shelf is made to meet those requirements.
Lighter weight armor can be found if you look, and may still be perfectly functional; at least as functional as it was in period, anyway. Will it completely protect you from all harm? Probably not. Will it protect you from what the original designers meant it to protect from? Most likely.
I don't know if that really helps you or not, f.m., but maybe it'll help you figure out if a particular piece will protect you properly.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Sept 20, 2011 17:06:42 GMT
You could use ringlord, make oyur own, and be nuts like me and buy titanium wire and just make riveted titanium maile.. Not historical, but the bugger is light as a feather!!
Failing that, leather is an option too.
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Post by Hiroshi on Sept 20, 2011 21:40:35 GMT
you could always to lamellar. available in kits. Make it yourself pretty cheap. Effective. Light weight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2011 0:35:53 GMT
Hey, do you know of a place where I can buy mild steel or iron lamellar scales? I could only find stainless, aluminum, and plastic SCA stuff the last time that I looked.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Sept 21, 2011 3:37:56 GMT
If you have tools for riveting, then going to your local machinist and having him cut out a couple forms for metal ductwork in 20Gg steel and then riveting that to leather is inexpensive and easy to make chest and back protection. Can look pretty decent, too if you are any good with leather.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Sept 21, 2011 3:41:41 GMT
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Post by f.m. on Sept 21, 2011 18:11:27 GMT
Thanks for the input, the ringmesh stuff has kinda sparked my interest. Im tempted to get a sample of material and test it myself..call me old fashioned but Im naturally suspicious of the protection level of their 7 lb hauberk, when a riveted mild steel one usually weighs 20 lbs or so..I suppose its possible with really tiny rings so its more like a thin cloth, but who knows..anyone ever seen it/worked with it? Hey if it performs slightly less than my standards I can just layer a couple of them and still have it be lighter than gdfb's stuff
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ChrisA
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Post by ChrisA on Sept 22, 2011 17:48:41 GMT
I have a Ringmesh shirt. I didn't get it for protection or anything. I got it because it looked really cool (and it is!!). As had been said, it is very light and thin. It is easily worn under normal clothes. It is very nonrestrictive, allowing full freedom of movement. The weight feels similar to a wet t-shirt. And it looks really nice. But I have doubts about it being any kind of serious protection. I have not done any tests, nor will I. With a bit of padding, I think it would hold up to most slashing attacks. It may not hold up against a pole arm such as a poll axe. But almost certainly against a sword slash or even a axe. I think the small rings would stop a light stab, with, say a knife or a one handed thrust with a non-stabby sword (say a XII), but would not hold up to a fierce (half swording)thrust with a good thruster (XV or XVIII). To me, the rings seem too thin to hold up to it. I might be wrong and the welded rings just might be strong enough. Again, I haven't tried it and I don't want to ruin my shirt to find out. I think it safe to say that Ringmesh would be useless against any blunt trauma (mace, warhammer, etc) as it is too light and flexible and would do nothing to absorb the impact. This I can test if someone wants to come by and wear it while I smash you with a warhammer . A heavy undergarment (gambeson) needs to be worn with Ringmesh to protect against non edged attacks. Edit. Forgot: I do think it would be excellent to wear under other types of armor as a backup. A thrust or slash that pentrates a true shirt of maille would almost certainly be stopped by an unlying shirt of Ringmesh. And as light as it is, it wouldn't add significant weight and would hardly be noticed by the wearer. Just my observations.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Sept 22, 2011 21:57:35 GMT
Ringmesh will keep you from getting cut. Anything else depends on what you have on Under the Ringmesh. But then, that's the case with any chainmail. The chain exists to stop the edge from slicing your flesh. The padding underneath is to absorb the bludgeoning impact of the blow. Piercing attacks (thrusts, stabs, arrows...) will almost always defeat it. Ringmesh does it better and with less weight due to improvements in technology and materials over the last thousand years.
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Post by f.m. on Sept 25, 2011 4:42:29 GMT
Alright, I've figured it out! Im going to use the plastic from special 55gal. Drums that dairies use for udder cleaning chemical. (The cheapest way to get used ones.) One whole barrel weighs about 15 lbs but id just be using the thinner sidewall of them. From making chicken coops and shields, I can say that its pretty much a wasted effort to try and hand saw your way through one..I've stabbed at one and the most I've been able to do is nick it a little. The best part is its lightweight and can be slightly heat formed. Based on the shields I made, a lorica squamata or a double layer torso wrap and pauldron set should weigh right around 10 lbs including a thick backing material to hold it together...now to figure out transportation for them from a recycler near me, an electric saber saw to cut them, a hand drill for the holes, etc.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Sept 30, 2011 15:26:09 GMT
What are you using this armour for? Sounds like an entry level SCA kit you're making there except for the cutting and stabbing comments...
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Post by buliwyf on Sept 30, 2011 15:49:54 GMT
I;ve had my own suit for years but it was bought a little at a time from gambeson/maile to bacers and leg armour,It did take a while to find the right helmet.Yes it should be real looking but unless you have a time machine and are going back for battle you really dont need to go to crazy.I think even the SCA's rules arent to hard to follow.My suit is mostly fantasy,kind of a LOTR Rohan vibe but what ever is very thick water buffalo hyde with titanium rivets has 1/8 to 1/4 inch steel plates sandwiched between.I guess overkill for the faires and halloween parties so who am I to tell you what to get. I could have bought a steel suit for what I have spent so far but I love the look I have now.I need to put it on again with all the pieces,in GA it just gets to dam hot to wear it all. I love the back scales and horse hair greeves and I think the uppur gaurds a tassets I'll stop here with the basics but theres also boots,cape,helmet,gambeson and maille. Like I said I was going for a LOTR Rohan thing and the buffalo hyde is very thick and extremly tough.
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