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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 8:55:07 GMT
I am very interested in beginning Aikido shortly and have been researching about its history and principals behind the art. Last night I came across a website which listed Aikido as one of the principle sword arts in Japan along with Kenjitsu and Kendo. From my reading sword techniques are used in Aikido but are not the main focus of the art, which is ok because I have other reasons for starting training. I am curious however and would like to ask some of the Aikidoka here on the forum just how much emphasis is put on swordsmanship skills in Aikido?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 9:14:26 GMT
Well first you should spell it properly, it is aikido and it depends on what level you are at in your training. At first it is very basic but it gets more advanced, aikido focuses more on unarmed combat. Generally aikido is taught along with iaido.
Why are you starting aikido? For what reason?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 10:22:01 GMT
Sorry my spelling is terrible and it would seem that everyday my typing is also getting worse, lol.
There is no Iaido near where I am going to train but there is a Kendo Dojo which is also something I am interested in starting. My Old Kobudo Sensei was very highly ranked in Tai Chi and he would tell me about energy and Chi which is partly what attracted me to Aikido. Also after reading it is much more designed for defending oneself but also doing so while causing the least amount of injury to the attacker. Which is a good thing to learn in this day and age where the laws seem to protect everyone but the victim. I think that the spiritual and mental side along with the physical will be all round very beneficial to my life. As I am planning on joining the Police fore I think this will also be of use in that respect as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 11:49:36 GMT
Musashi: it isn't a bad choice although it is somewhat impractical, you will get taught certain combat by the police force but you need something more brutal than aikido. Being able to defend yourself without causing injury is all well and good but better to leave your opponent on the ground wishing he'd never come up against you or something more labour intensive in regards to CQB would be more beneficial if you want to become a police officer. The problem is that police have to get in close to handcuff a prisoner, you are at your most vulnerable when you have your weapon out and your moving in to handcuff your target. Trying to handcuff a prisoner is the most dangerous position a police officer can put himself in, I would actually suggest something like jujitsu or ninjutsu as they are far more practical. Just my .02 cents
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jan 1, 2008 12:02:23 GMT
I suggest gracey jujitsu ........ lots of very fast take-downs and holds to make them stay down
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 0:33:16 GMT
Don't worry guys, when I get to Canberra I'm going to town so to speak. Aikido and Kendo are both on after each other on Tuesday and Thursday night which gives me the rest of the week for other training. There is a Bujinkan Dojo as well as a Wing Chung class( don't know the Chinese name for Dojo) that have class on the other nights of the week and am considering doing both as well, both of which seem to be very brutal. I am thinking doing brutal art and not so brutal art is a good idea (I am thinking along the lines of ying and yang), if they guy comes at me use an Aikido move hopefully that will put the fear God into him and he runs of but if not use a Bujinkan move to make sure he stays down at least then they chance to reconsider. Don’t get me wrong here if some one was trying to kill me and the only way I could protect my own life was to kill the other guy I wouldn’t hesitate to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 23:12:19 GMT
Was gonna suggest Tai Chi and Wing Chun combo before I saw yer last post. The "chi" of which you spoke is developed through Qigong training of a specific (internal) type. Chen Tai Chi, for example, claims Bodhidharma's 6th century power secrets in its silk reeling qigong. (This is the power of "four ounces defeats a thousand pounds" and dim mak.)
Quigong can be done as virtually anything, internal or external, provided certain criteria are met. And Wing Chun quigong is so much like tai chi that, when you see a demo of Pan Man Wing Chun sparring, you'd swear it was chen push hands. (Wing Chun also trains in external qigong, with the wooden dummy.) Lots of other similarities, so why not just do Wing Chun with the Tai Chi quigong principles/practices? Wing Chun is straight-forward and offensive, and the forms are the simplest around to initially learn. The forms are amenable to qigong, both in solo forms and push hands especially. The stances are similar and transferable should you do Tai Chi later. Seems that Jujitsu wants to end up on ground, and that gives too much time to have the gun taken. Aikido feels too passive/reactive compared to Tai Chi/Wing Chun. Get some chin na (joint/muscle/tendon separation). That's what the academy teaches. But mostly, the proper qigong will develop listening energy and sticking, for close-in cop situations requiring every kind of deft touch. Like reading someones mind by placing a hand on their shoulder (hellstromism). cheers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 1:14:00 GMT
Aikido is actually pretty well suited to the police force - a lot of the wrist locks they use to control arrestees are variations on the same ones used in aikido.
But that's not your question.
Your question involved swordsmanship.
Aikido's footwork and body movement are based on sword principles. Sokaku Takeda who taught Ueshiba was a master of Ono-Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu. Ueshiba learned that from him, and was himself a master of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu(IIRC). Aikido - even the unarmed stuff - will teach you how to move with a sword and vice-versa.
The amount of emphasis that is placed on the correlation between Sword-Techniques and Taijutsu(body techniques) depends on the style, and the teacher.
The most widely accepted form of Aikido that has a sword curriculum is Iwama Ryu, as taught by Morihiro Saito. There is the Iwama organization, but it's mostly been merged with the main Aikikai at this point.
Saotome Sensei, who started the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba developed a unique and completely separate sword system that largely reaches the same goal as Saito's. Saotome's has the novelty of including niten(two-sword) techniques as well.
A third system, which is largely the most connected with swordplay is that developed by the late Shoji Nishio sensei, who, in addition to being 8th dan Aikidoka with the Aikikai, also had high ranks(Yondan or above) in Karatedo, Judo, Iaido, and Sojustu. He developed a set of Iai forms called Aiki-Toho-iaido that is based on the principle that not only are the movements of a sword inspired by empty handed techniques and vice-versa, but that they are literally Identical. Problem is, Aiki-Toho-Iai is very very rare.
Now I do Iwama Ryu, but have gone to a several seminars taught in other styles, as well as owning technique books of other styles. Personally I can say that Iwama Ryu does an amazing job of incorporating weapons and empty-handed technques though it's not obvious at first. Just train train train your Suburi with your Ken and Jo, and your empty handed techniques will come very naturally.
As for Aikido being passive/reactive, i've seen that perception before. It's mostly based on what people see in practices involving beginners doing mostly Kihon Waza(basic techniques).
Advanced aikido is far more PROactive, rather than REactive. Aikdio randori teaches you how to move amongst the dynamic of multiple others, and through mastery of the Kihon waza and developed Ki-No-Nagare techniques, Aikido can be very very effective 'on the street' if you'll pardon the pun.
What you must understand is that Wing Chun is a FIGHTING art. Aikido is a MARTIAL art. There is a large difference, as Wing Chun teaches you how to FIGHT, Aikido will teach you how to have as little fighting as possible in your life - and part of that is ending fights that are unavoidable in as quick and harmonious a way as possible.
Aikido is as practical as you train it. And while something like 'gracie jujutsu' or the like is undoubtedly better suited to your needs if your goal is to 'bring someone down and make them stay down' remember that that is as far from the goal of a Police Officer as is letting someone go on a crime spree. Your job as a police officer is to arrest criminals and keep the populace safe - and that doesn't mean just beating the semprini out of every criminal who crosses your path.
Especially in today's world where even the slightest step of aggression can warrant a call of 'police brutality'.
I've done a little tai chi, and my Aikido sensei does Tai Chi actively. I know a number of others who cross train in both also, and largely the consensus is that both are very very very similar in terms of the principles they teach you regarding relaxation, inner power, coordination, extension, etc. So don't just dismiss Aikido because they don't advocate knocking someone's face in at your earliest opportunity.
That is probably the most true thing said on this entire forum, ever.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 3, 2008 1:17:09 GMT
FWIW, one of the best fighters and overall good person I've ever met spent many years in aikido. (of course I'd always joke around with him and say the best way to fight someone in aikido is not to punch at all - they'd be at a loss of what to do ;D. Only joking of course )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 1:51:36 GMT
Just a little blip on Wing Chun. In my experience, Wing Chun's offensive techniques are mainly striking and, as such, may not provide the necessary wrist/arm locks that you may need for the police force.
That's not to say don't go for Wing Chun. It'll certainly teach you how to defend yourself and take down an aggressor. Aikido might supplement Wing Chun with take-downs that doesn't involve decking the guy in the face though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 2:22:11 GMT
Thanks Opferous,
Adam, I suggested Wing Chun for its traps and blocks, and because he wanted something harder to go with softer. And I insisted upon Chin Na (which Tai Chi provides), which is what police teach. They do not teach Aikido, whose wristlocks are derivative. As you've mentioned, Aikido is based on the sword. The distances are different.
Also, Aikido does not train qi (qigong) the way his Kobudo Sensei referenced. I mentioned Wing Chun for the above reasons and for its overall agreement (southern style/taoist derived) with Tai Chi. And I thought I stressed, especially, the sensitivity training common to both. I'm not dismissing Aikido just to advocate knocking someone's face in at the earliest opportunity. Did you really think that?
What Aikido (which I've practiced) provides is a beautiful message of harmony based on sharp leverage points, as one would expect. And let me say, Musashi, that if Aikido is your style, it's one of my favorites too. (Just check my posts wh/ reference Aikido...and you too, Adam.)
But what I am addressing, definitely, is the "chi" which his Sensei referenced, and the Qigong that provides it. And for this, Aikido will not do.
That said, there's certainly no reason he can't do both the qigong AND the Aikido. I was just trying to consolidate.
More than that, I was appealing to the "other aspects" Musashi was hinting at, while suggesting a harder style that would be in keeping with Sensei's admonition. That other aspect might (even more likely) ground itself in the meditative (buddhahood) aspects of Wudang Qigong=Enlightenment. But for this, Aikido has its own approaches, to be sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 2:26:38 GMT
Actually, you've touched on something very important, I think.
Aikido, from a martial perspective, encourages a person that you're in a conflict with, to over-commit to an attack which makes it easier to take their balance or effect a throw or lock. In the event that a person doesn't commit to their strikes, Aikido becomes more difficult and things like timing, entering, and extension(fundamentals to the art) become drastically more important to effective technique.
Wing Chun teaches non-committed strikes. I.E. the strikes do not compromise the strikers balance or center. Cross training in both Aikido and Wing Chun can be beneficial to a practitioner of either - particularly for the Aikidoka.
No strike is perfectly non-committed. There is always a point when a striker is at a moment of vulnerability. This moment happens right at the point of maximum extension of their strike before they retract it or go on to another movement. The goal of many fighters is to minimize this vulnerability. As an aikidoka, learning this will also teach you how to take advantage of it when you fight a skilled opponent.
I remember Bruce Lee(a famous practitioner of Wing Chun) stating he was very impressed with some Hapkidoka that he saw - Hapkido being the Korean 'style' of aikido, with primarily the same techniques and principles. He was impressed enough that in his movie 'Game of Death' (that never aired, unfortunately) the 4th of 5 masters and the most dangerous(with the exception of the Jeet-Kun-Do using Kareem at the top) was a hapkidoka.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 3:52:42 GMT
Thank You Adam, You've struck right at the heart of the difference. As "no strike is perfectly non-committed," your sensitivity and ability to adjust (listening/sticking) becomes more important, even on an engineering level (Aikido leverages). And each has its own training, but this is where we part ways. Aikido is highly choreographed, whereas pushing hands is a dynamic form of Qigong, in both Tai Chi and Wing Chun, designed to develop a highly specialized internal energy/power, best manifested at the closest possible rages. But if I'm a resistant perp, I'd rather be in the hands of an aikidoka than a Wing Chun player, unless the Wing Chun understanding of budo was as deep as his/her qigong, in which case, no Aikidoka would ever confront a Qigong player, and vice versa. Musashi, what linked Tai Chi energies to Aikido for you? Let us know what you've decided upon, and rest assured you cannot go wrong. Your body will tell you. And never stop dividing (yin/yang) for therein grows you. (Bruce Lee, Tao of JKD; and I-Ching, of 5-elements boxing, ie., Hsing-I, Wu-Xing, Yi Quan, etc., etc. It's all in the imagination) Better yet, hawk your own style...Chen Wing Chun Aiki-do. Do you know of Liu He Ba Fa? Better yet still, do a youtube search of "Pan[g] Nam Wing Chun Chin Na" and the first result will give you a police demo for disarming a gun from your knees. This is what police are learning. All the youtube links there will show the same.
To the young. Ichi Go, Ichi E (one life, one meeting)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 11:17:06 GMT
Thanks everyone, I didn't know the movements of Aikido were based of sword movements. Adam you have really hit the nail on the head of why I want to learn Aikido. When I become a cop I will have to be careful you can't just kick a perps face in, especially if people know you have martial arts experience let alone a cop, as soon as you raise a fist even in self defense it can be thrown back at you if you end up in court. I am not trying to bag out any particular style but no martial arts is perfect they all have holes in them so by cross training I hope to fill up these holes. I am going to try and train in as many different styles as I can keep up with to really make my training well rounded.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 18:02:51 GMT
[My Old Kobudo Sensei was very highly ranked in Tai Chi and he would tell me about energy and Chi which is partly what attracted me to Aikido.]
Sorry for the confusion, Musashi. Guess I just should've tried to clarify how you were connecting (?) the chi of Tai Chi to the ki of Aikido. No matter.
I think you'd really like "The Principles of Aikido," and "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature," both written by Mitsugi Saotome. The first deals primarily with techniques, including jo and sword comparisons to the bare-hand sequences.
The second is more philosophical, and the techniques here are employed in the service of the broadest imaginable lessons, with illustrations by the author. (ie., Chapter 3: The Beginning of the Universe...where the movement of a comet, for instance, is expressed through ryote mochi kokyu naqge, etc., etc. I read this book once a year, at least.) There's also chapter 10, "Ki and Kokyu," a very thorough (and refreshing!) introduction to the (hugely expansive) Japanese concept.
May I leave you with the account of Aikido's founding moment of enlightenment? It occurred while Ueshiba was disciple to Takeda Sensei (and was prompted largely by his seeing "from an infinite distance the depth of his sensei's paranoia and unhappiness, for Takeda had killed many times with his bare hands):
"Still there was a spiritual emptiness with the mastery of each martial Way. The Budo taught deep knowledge and incredible strength of will, but their basic foundation was destruction, and this seemed somehow incomplete...Looking upon the evolution of bujutsu into Budo, O Sensei saw that although a higher consciousness was struggling to evolve, the work was not finished. It had just begun...There was the shadowy promise, unclear and never fully formed, that harmony is the greatest strength...Slowly he began to feel the tug of an elusive idea...a peripheral vision lost in the focusing. And he went to the mountain, and he prayed. He searched the essence of God, which was deep within his spirit. In despair he gave up his attachment to the evasive fragments of truth he had been seeking for so long. He trained hard and pushed his body to its very limits and beyond. And as his body, mind, and spirit were emptied and made pure, the blinding light of reality illuminated his soul. He reached out and touched truth. He breathed its perfume and was nourished by its richness. He drank its liquid essence, and it quenched his thirst. His body was cleansed by its golden fire. He heard the song of the birds, and their language was his. Looking into the sky, he perceived the thundering movement of the galaxies, and it echoed through his body. No longer only a man, he was an expression of truth and of the divine power of the universe. As tears of joy and release streamed down his face, he understood. Budo is the protection of all life. It is nothing but this protection and the divine love, and the divine will of God expressed in the movements of the human body, and in the original purity of the human spirit. The spirit of all life is a part of God; the Universal Intelligence is the great unifier of all creation. There can be no enemy; the only enemy is oneself."
Thanks to Musashi and Adam for prompting me to revisit this fine art.
Hashi wa nagarete; kawa wa nagarezu (The bridge is a stream; the river is not a stream.)
and again when he went back years later,
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2008 6:41:28 GMT
I think I see where you're coming from when you say this. Allow me to try a bit of clarification:
"The beginning techniques of aikido are highly choreographed." <- True.
"Aikido is highly choreographed" <- False.
Aikido has, with varying degrees depending on the teacher, a number of practices that are as completely unchoreographed as any exercise in any other martial art. I've done variations of 'pushing hands' as well as other exercises designed specifically to develop sensitivity and awareness, as well as develop a sense of your body and how to hold it in a relaxed and grounded manner; and even other ones that help develop martially sound and simultaneously spontaneous body positioning.
Remember - Tai Chi is not all pushing hands and Aikido is not all stylized forms. There are choreographed form sets in Tai Chi and there is plenty of non-choreographed training in aikido. We even have Jiyu-Waza(free technique) which is where one person spontaneously attacks another and the other one deals with it. It's like sparring but done in a manner that is designed to prevent destroyed joints and smashed faces.
BTW: Where did you get that particular quote regarding O-Sensei? I've never heard that one before...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2008 21:04:34 GMT
The O Sensei narrative is from Mitsugi Saotome's "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature," chapter 8, Budo: The Education of Instinct. The whole book is great, and he touches on everything, from politics to quarks. Here's something from chapter 9, Aikido: The Transmission of Truth: "Once in Ayabe, when O Sensei was perhaps fifty years of age, he was visited by a very accomplished kendo master. Anxious to test himself and to prove a point, the kendo master challenged O Sensei. They walked into the garden together, the kendo master carrying his katana, O Sensei empty-handed. The sun flashed off the brightly polished steel as the kendo master moved into his kamae, O Sensei standing quietly before him. And they stood. Sweat began to break on the kendo master's forehead, rolling down his cheeks like tears. It fell like a thousand prisms from the strained and glistening muscles of his powerfully developed forearms. And still they stood. O Sensei, calm and detached, aware but not waiting, only reflected the image of the man and the glittering steel before him. Five, seven, then ten minutes passed. Exhausted from the struggle of attempting to attack the universe, the kendo man surrendered. He had been unable to move. His acute sensitivity and perception had revealed no openings in O Sensei's defense." But I think my favorite passage is still the part about the tea ceremony; its origins, construction, conduct, and meaning. This is really a good book, and like I said, I read it once a year. The artwork's good too. Here's a great youtube link to many demos of all the "internal" (neigong) arts, with the first set being aikido. Happy viewing! neigong.net/videos/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2008 16:17:15 GMT
Good thread guys, let me see if I can add anything to help musashi. I started studying Aikido many years ago, but have since stopped due to many reasons, none of which were that I didn't like it. I currently study Shinkendo, Japanese swordsmanship, which some of which is derived from Aikido, the founders first art.
Aikido does have many of its foundation in swordsmanship, primarily because O'Sensei first studied the sword, before he started learning empty hand arts and then created Aikido. Even now in my Shinkendo studies I recognize some things that are rather Aikido'esk, like sliding offline, or behind the opponent. And our tai sobaki, unarmed movement vs an armed opponent, is very much Aikido.
When I was studying Aikido they had us buy bokkens. I thought that strange, but when we all had our bokkens, we were tought some techniques vs an armed opponent, both swords(bokkens) and knives(we used wood knives). This was some pretty basic stuff since most of the class were beginning Aikidoka, but it was very cool to learn this and see that the art is practical for armed opponents. I also know that as you work further along in Aikido, you learn some basic actual swordsmanship, as well as bo and jo staff.
The practicality and effectiveness of Aikido is a debate with me. Many say it's not a practical street art until you get much higher rank. I personally totally disagree, in that anything that teaches you to 1) get out of the way 2) redirect the attack 3) dispatch the attacker is helpful and usefull. And those are the steps of all Aikido moves, in that order. In my dojo we had an older guy who had been studying for a long time and had some "life experience". He would work with the older students sometimes, showing us how our basic Aikido techniques can be used in a "street wise" situation. It doesn't take much to have an Aikido technique turn dangerous, and in fact a beginning is more likely to do it for lack of experience, in a street fight situation. There are also several styles of Aikido, some softer then others. The "harder" of the styles is called Yoshinkan, the first form taught by O'Sensei to Shiado Goza who was the leader of Yoshinkan style. It was later in years, after WWII, that O'Sensei made Aikido more stylized and "softer" known as Aikikai style.
On the police front, I think any art(s) that deal with grappling and restraining would be helpful. My local PD actually teaches some Gracey Jujitsu in the academy.
From what you said, musashi, of your previous experience and what you are looking for, Aikido is likely a good art for you, along with the others you are looking at. This thread actually made me think to possibly look into finding a Tai Chi instructer and looking into starting that along with my Shinkendo.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2008 23:34:42 GMT
I have trained in many traditional arts....Aikido being one of them. I am a police officer in the USA , and the most effective thing that I have found myself using to control people is judo. The emphasis is on a takedown, and a controlling position, once the subject is down. Don't get caught in a grappling match...that could be dangerous,and you dont know what they have in their pocket. Remember, there is already at least one gun there,and a variety of less-lethal tools that can be used against you. Most times here, my confrontations have begun when I have been close to a suspect,and they decide to run or fight, usually with their back facing me. You are in a great position to clinch and get them down. Control an arm, issue commands and get em cuffed.
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