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Post by tjcain on Sept 5, 2011 21:43:15 GMT
Hey everyone;
How is everyone this Labor Day weekend. Hope everyone is doing well with the weather being what it is and the Hurricane that went thru last week.
I need your expertise and patience. I am looking to place a hilt (not made yet) on a blade. The problem I have is understanding the mechanics of the assembly. Now don't laugh, or at least do not drink anything while reading this; what exactly holds the guard in place as tight as it is?.
Surely it is not the amount of pressure coming from the pommel nut. I have looked at numerous photo's of the blade and hilt of rapiers as well as my own rapier ans side sword. (not disassembled) There is nothing in front of the guard to keep it in place and the knuckle bow does not extend to the pommel. The first is is bell, then the finger loops around the ricasso, then the quillions and finally the grip.
I really do not wish to take these apart because right now everything is lined up perfectly on both of them and I know I could not get that to happen again. Besides I just moved last month and have not tracked down all my tools.
Anything you all can offer is greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Thomas
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 22:22:32 GMT
It depends on the specific sword you are looking at.
On most European swords, where the sword is assembled with a pommel nut, it is simply the pommel nut pushing against the pommel, which pushes against the grip, the grip in turn pushing the guard against the blade shoulder that holds everything tight. A peen is often used to exert the necessary pressure to hold all the hilt components tight. So is threaded pommel.
Often the peen only holds the pommel to the tang (the pommel slot only allowing the pommel to go so far down the tang). Then the grip is held on by some sort of glue (usually epoxy) and the guard is a press fit (usually driven onto the blade shoulder).
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 5, 2011 22:58:53 GMT
Yep, like blade said, it's often just the pommel nut pushing everything together- that's how your longsword is done. Here's a clip showing the cross being hammered onto the shoulders of the blade- a press fit:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 0:27:36 GMT
Thomas
While it might seem that a pommel nut is inadequate to provide the necessary force to hold a hilt together, they are in fact capable of exerting more force than is needed. Most are either 1/4-20, 6mx1 or 5/16-18 (diameter and thread pitch). All of which work just fine.
The problem occasionally encountered with pommel nuts is when the hilt is designed to allow side loads to be exerted on the threaded portion of the tang. A correctly designed hilt using a pommel nut only uses the nut to apply compression to the hilt components. Because the threaded area is comprised of sharp angles stress fractures can occur when being subjected to constant side loading. If the hilt is designed so that side loads are transmitted to the threaded part of the tang and not directly to the flat unthreaded portion of the tang, it can lead to the tang breaking at the threaded area.
This also why the use of threaded pommels is not recommended. Threading a pommel to the end of the tang puts the load directly on the threads. This can be made to work, but the threaded area of the tang needs to be larger to be able to absorb the loads with minimal flexing. My opinion is that 1/4-20 and 6m x1 threaded tangs are to weak for the use of a threaded pommel. 5/16-18 is probably adequate. There are other reasons why threaded pommels are generally not a good design choice. For example when the hilt components loosen up (almost always occurs with hilt designs using a peen, nut or pommel to compress all the hilt components) and the hilt needs to be tightened, asymmetrical pommels (a disc pommel is asymmetrical, a scent stopper pommel would be symmetrical) will usually no longer line up with the rest of the hilt when tightened.
One other thing you should be aware of, the grip on many hilts are glued onto the tang. So even when removing the peen, nut or threaded pommel, you still may not be able to remove the grip without damaging it. Sometimes glued on grips will come loose with no damage to them, other times they will not.
I hope this helps you to understand the mechanics of the hilt assembly.
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 6, 2011 0:40:53 GMT
Beautiful post blade. SBG's sister site, SMG, has a great article by Michael TInker Pearce: The Qualities of a 'Good' Euro-style Swordquote- "In about 1625 a firm of cutlers in England created a different method of holding on the hilt by cutting a screw-thread on the tip of the tang which was secured by a nut that was counter-sunk into the pommel. Note that this is NOT a 'screwed-on pommel'. In this case the pommel was not free to rotate, but rather 'keyed' over the rectangular section of the tang. Variations on this method continued to be used alongside the traditional 'riveted' construction until the dawn of the 20th century, though it was never as common as the older method."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 0:55:01 GMT
Thanks Chris. I went and read the article, it was very informative.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Sept 6, 2011 18:26:43 GMT
As others have observed, it is in fact the pommel assembly that usually holds the whole hilt together. You actually have to be quite careful when putting together the pommel that you don't break the grip core from over-compressing it, yet you still want the core to be the right length that it'll be compressed just a wee bit enough to keep the guard tight against the shoulders of the blade if it isn't press-fit... Jeffrey Robinson (our BrotherBanzai) uses a technique he calls 'banzai peen' where he uses a punch to peen a bit of metal off the tang to hold the guard tight against the blade.
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Post by tjcain on Sept 10, 2011 0:51:59 GMT
Thanks everyone;
I am sorry it took so long to get back with you all. Your explanations and video really made it make sense. If I had been paying attention it would have been unnecessary but I really do appreciate the help none the less.
Thomas
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Sept 11, 2011 15:06:31 GMT
Hi Guys Just a couple of points. The Banzai peen we do is not to fold over any of the tang steel. What we do is use a rounded punch and go in a circle on top of the gaurd just by the passage of the tang, and it spreads the metal out hard against the tang. It can be quite forcefull and clamp the guard to the tang very securely, just as well as a swaged guard.
Also, a screw on pommel can be done very securely. The way I do it is to forge and draw the 6mm flatbar out into a 10mm round rod, and then anneal it nice and soft. I thread it with a 3/8UNC die nut. I don't thread it all - I just thread the end 20mm which will sit deep inside the pommel. The shoulder of the pommel sits on full thickness unthreaded rod. Any flex or shock in the pommel is pivoting on 3/8" unthreaded annealed steel. That is tough and can take about 25lb of force to bend it.
When I lathe the pommel I will drill a pilot hole of 7.4mm. I then dril a 'shoulder hole' say 20mm deep at 9.5mm (3/8"). Then I tap inside from the 20 to 40mm depth. The thread is deep inside the pommel, while the shoulder is strong. I will usually grind the rod flat to a 6mm thickness x 3/8" across. This still threads the pommel on securely, but allows the guard and grip to pass without having an ugly pilot hole.
Let me know if any of this is unclear. As mentioned the screw on method is only ideal for scent stopper pommels. Especially pointed ones which can't conceal a recessed nut.
BTW I had a Hanwei rapier and the whole guard was a loose fit, but all held firm with the screw on pommel (6mm thread) and the guard sat still and didn't rattle or move when all assembled. Happy swordmaking. Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2011 17:21:04 GMT
Seen several swords where sloppy fitting hilt components were kept from rattling by periodically tightening the pommel.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Sept 15, 2011 19:44:45 GMT
Just a quirky side note from my own "Dark Ages" of sword use and collecting, around 15-20 years ago when (non DT made) Windlass Euros were all screw-on pommels, and I was having them come loose when test cutting. It was particularly bad with my Atlanta Cutlery "War Sword" (a less expensive ripoff of the DT 5143). But I came up with a surprisingly effective, if "non-historical" solution. That is, I "keyed" together the entire hilt--guard, handle, and pommel-- by stitching a single piece of rawhide that extended over them all. My main thought at first was simply to make the wheel pommel incapable of turning. I'm sure, however, it had the added effect of distributing stresses so that the entire assembly acted as one. It looked weird, but performed beautifully; in those days I had a steady supply of roadkill deer carcass to test on because of my neighbor's job w/ the DNR picking them up. Not a single test cut, even to hip bones, fazed the War Sword from that point on, when its "poor design" originally made even plastic bottles cause it to loosen every one or two cuts. In any case, I haven't found a need to revisit the technique in many years. But the "weird" look kind of grew on me because of how well it worked (nothing is as pretty as effectiveness!), so I still might go back to it on something someday.
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