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Post by NIM7 on Aug 24, 2011 3:20:35 GMT
Hi all, I was wondering if anyone would know what difference it would make to a blade which is finger stone polished to a blade polished the "normal" way? Reason why I ask is because of a custom sword I would like to purchase, however while the sword is affordable by itself, but if I want finger stone polishing it would cost an extra $700?! :?
Steel activity: random folds ($50) Differential hardening: clay hardened ($50), sanmei ($100) Finger stone polishing extra $700
I do know that finger stone polishing requires a lot of skill and concentration/experience, but does it really have a huge difference to show the beauty of blade?
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 24, 2011 4:26:35 GMT
...random folds? I'd pass on that one...
As to finger stones, well, they are extremely tedious and quite dangerous (very small pieces of super-fine abrasives right along the edge of an already very-sharp sword? Watch out.) but anybody who knows how to use them properly will be able to bring out that much more activity in the steel, particularly the hamon, which is the general purpose of these stones.
Overall, the polish level will not be noticeably different, but depending which stones are applied in what way, you could see more activity in the hamon, or it could just "enhance" the "cloudy white" bits. Of course, it will also add a slight gloss to the rest of the blade, as well.
That is, if I'm thinking of the right "finger stones."
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Post by NIM7 on Aug 24, 2011 5:52:36 GMT
Well, its from Jin Shi order form, if I wanted an sanmei blade, it would only come with "random folds". Actually, would this be classed as random folds? I do however know what twist core feather pattern looks like. Would there be a difference to the blade besides the cosmetics on different folds? From what you said, finger stone polishing would enhance gloss/contrast to the blade. Would it worth extra $700? well maybe not to the buyer but it would be to the one who has to do it lol. I do know its hard and dangerous but for that amount of money? Thank you for the info. =)
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 24, 2011 6:55:41 GMT
I'm not sure how I'd classify that pattern...okay I'd call it ugly but beauty and the beholder and all that, but I won't try to guess the differences between folding, laminating, or any other welding, pattern or otherwise, techniques, because I am simply not versed in such things.
Is there a benefit to finger stone polishing? Well, again, if I'm thinking of the right finger stones, I've already gone over the benefits...basically, more sophisticated polish, or what some might call an "art polish," but whether that's worth $700 to anybody, is for them to decide.
I wouldn't put an extra $700 on it, myself, but then again, few charge that for a "full polish" on the average blade, antiques excluded.
Finger stones on a Jin Shi? Eh, not necessary.
That blade looks really weird...but maybe it's just me?
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Post by NIM7 on Aug 24, 2011 7:48:20 GMT
I also think the pattern looks weird. I actually dont know what random folding means and that was what I though it might of been/end up looking like. How ever, the question still stands to anyone who may know about folding blades (Would there be a difference to the blade besides the cosmetics on different types of folds?).
Im gona save myself $700 if its not necessary, I could always get it done by someone sometime if I need it (most likely I wont need such).
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 24, 2011 8:00:16 GMT
I'm not finding any good info on whether the different methods of folding or twisting or what have you, have any particular impact on the blade itself, but I do wonder if, perhaps, it might offer a certain "boost" in impact resilience or ductility along a given axis? I doubt it, though.
The rest pretty much seems to be for the sake of the pattern, naturally with the benefits of the mixing-up bit, as well. For early blades, that is. Nowadays...pattern.
You can definitely always send the blade back or to somebody else for extra polishing if you're not satisfied with how it arrives. $700 is a lot to chuck out if you're not even sure how much different it will be.
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Post by Aaron W on Aug 24, 2011 16:29:05 GMT
I've never heard of any kind of advantage of one folding pattern over another. I think the reason this company might call it a "random fold" is because they're incapable of producting a particular type of fold on demand, so they fold the billet and just give the customer whatever comes out of it. Now I'm not attempting to insult anyone here, folding in a particular way to produce a particular pattern is hard work, no doubting that.
Now $700 for a finger stone polish, I'd be asking the company what exactly that looks like afterwards, and what kind of polish is to be had without the finger stone. As Random has already said, the finger stone might be an art polish, which if you're going to be using this blade, wouldn't be something I'd advise in anyway. Cutting any kind of target is going to scuff your blade, no matter how good the steel is, or how excellent you are at cutting. So getting an art polish, then putting your blade through a tamashigiri session, you're going to literally have wasted $700. See, the problem here is though, and this is why you ask what kind of polish it comes out in before the finger stone, if you opt out of the finger stone polish, they may decide to give you an almost dull piece of steel in the shape of a sword. Remember that Japanese swords are sharpened via their polishing method. So if it's a shoddy polish that you get right out of the forge, you've got a very difficult piece of steel to work with.
Polishing is unfortunately one of those things you have to deal with when you start getting into custom work. It's exactly like ito. After a while of using your sword, you're going to have to replace the ito. The same goes for polishing. After the blade dulls to a certain point, it's going to have to be polished up. So with that in mind, you don't choose an ito (hopefully), that's $50 per foot or something rediculious if you know you're just going to ware it down and fill it full of hand sweat.
I hope this helps answer any of your questions NIM7.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Aug 24, 2011 16:34:08 GMT
He said Jin-Shi; I think he's getting a Chinese sword, so the polish is more for art than sharpening IMO. I wouldn't go with it either...
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Post by Anders on Aug 24, 2011 17:51:16 GMT
Question: What are these "finger stones" I keep hearing about?
I tried googling the term but I'm not finding any useful results.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 24, 2011 21:32:23 GMT
I would presume the "fingerstones," and this is the assumption I've been going with since the beginning fo this thread, refer to what the Japanese call hazuya and jizuya. I don't know what the Chinese call them, and I don't know if they have better English names, rather than the obvious...well, maybe not so obvious to those unfamiliar with Japanese terminology...but these terms basically go to "edge polishing" and "skin (rest of the blade) polishing" stones. These are traditionally used in small pieces and rubbed against the steel with a finger, as opposed to the harder stones that tend to be more brick-like, on which the blade is rubbed. Here's an old thread where our own slavia used these stones on a Chinese custom of his: sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... read=14795
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Post by NIM7 on Aug 25, 2011 1:49:26 GMT
Thank you all for info, it was very helpful. I also presume finger stone polishing is hazuya and jizuya, because all it say on the form is that.
Jin Shi can however make twist-core feather pattern, but it seems they are unable to when a customer wants sanmei to their blade as that only comes with "random folds". I should of stated that I was referring to Jin Shi from the start :S . Well, Im gona save myself $700, thank you all again. =)
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Post by Jakeonthekob on Sept 6, 2011 20:39:29 GMT
The fingerstones would most likely be hazuya/jizuya as Randomnobody said but I agree with Aaron. A sword that will be used extensively should not be in art polish. Rather it should be in mirror or martial arts grade polish. Also, because it is a chinese made sword, it is really not worth in IMHO to put $700 into a sword that costs about $150 to produce. Save yourself the money and just go with a "factory polish".
Also, there is no real reason to fold modern steels besides the look. The way I see it, if the smith folds the blade and incorrectly folds one out of the 10-13 folds he does, then it makes the entire blade more susceptible to micro cracks and ultimately mechanical failure resulting in a snapped blade. Now, I'm talking about it you use the sword for extensive use on targets such as bottles, tatami, bamboo, etc. If it's just for a wallhanger and you like the folded pattern look, go for it. I just wouldn't spend $700 on the polish.
(I know it's a pretty opinionated response but that's just my thought process) Anyways, good luck on your new sword!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 0:54:09 GMT
heh - well to me "random folding" means crumple.. which is what that pattern looks like. Hmm.. I dunno, I don't think pattern is a huge factor in blade strength, but I've always thought of it like this - steel has grain and orientation. So I look for layer patterns that are at least conducive to strength. Like layers that go along the length to some degree, so that at least the blade is laminated in the right axis - since every boundary area between layers is a potential weak point from incomplete fusion, and we know that a sword will take the most load perpendicular to the edge. That's why you don't really see folded patterns that are in complete cross sections of the blade, not only would a blade like that look like a zebra, but it'd be willing to snap in half. I don't know if I'm explaining it well..
So in the case of the above 'random' pattern, it still looks like there may be some layering lengthwise, but just extremely lively. Personally though, I don't know that I'd trust it as much as a folded with clear orientation of the layers. But I'm no expert by any means, it's just based on intuition..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 14:05:30 GMT
A Hazuya stone is used (a small piece under the thumb) to brighten and bring out the Hamon and create a clear white Hamon line. The Jizuya is used (same way, small piece under the thumb) to bring out steel structures on the Ji-hada of the blade. $700 for a good final polish is a good price if it was done well but
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 14:09:50 GMT
it wouldn't be common to find a Chinese polisher that does a $700 final polishing job. You could be
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 14:11:19 GMT
lucky but.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 14:34:41 GMT
BTW, folding modern steel only has aesthetic quality and serves no functional purpose.In old times carbon concentration spots were unevenly spread out through the lumps of raw steel rocks, folding served the practical purpose of homogenizing the carbon content in the steel. Modern high carbon steel has a very evenly distributed carbon content. Having said that, folded steel on a Chinese katana looks nice. Though a real Japanese Katana is made from Tamahagane steel witch requires folding to evenly distribute the carbon in the steel.
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 23, 2012 15:06:41 GMT
Finger stone polish is not needed on any sword that will be used for regular cutting. If your using the sword for display, a fingerstone polish might be something to consider. I would not consider fingerstone polish on a sword that was not already over the $500 mark for the sword already. To invest the money of a high quality polish on a lower quality blade makes little sense. While sub $500 blades can have great quality for the price, they are generally made for use rather than show. They will have more inconsistencies in the blade. When you go up to $1000 blades, usually that is a sword already polished with finger stones. A $300 blade with a $700 polish. The reason I place my limit for finger polish at $500 is it means the investment of blade and polish is closer to the same $.
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