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Post by Madax132 on Aug 22, 2011 17:31:09 GMT
Carbon steel swords and stainless steel swords do have a distinct appearance though sometimes with the finish on a stainless sword it can surprise me when I say the etching that says 400 stainless, are all wallhander stainless steel swords marked with stainless steel by a law of some kind? If there some way to know for sure?
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Post by chrisperoni on Aug 22, 2011 17:41:15 GMT
No rule I've heard of and I have some wallhangers that are stainless but have no marking. On top of that, I have many knives from that claim to be all different kinds of steels but thay are all pretty much 440 stainless. They do what they like and say what they want on the steel. You just have to trust the seller.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Aug 22, 2011 17:41:51 GMT
No, they are not all marked. Some seek to pass their stainless steel off as carbon. It can be difficult at times to see the difference, as they will be given a polish that is muck alike a carbon swords polish.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 22, 2011 17:51:20 GMT
If you can get a hold of the sword the simple test is to stick a magnet on it. Stainless steel (and aluminum, fyi) isn't magnetic, carbon steel is. Doesn't really help you for buying online though.
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Post by Madax132 on Aug 22, 2011 20:12:24 GMT
Thank you that's very helpful, as far as online buying I only buy swords reviewed positively on here so no worries there, I just have some swords at home at the moment that I'm not completely sure of as far as light cutting goes, basically if all fittings are tight and it an flex decently I'll try some light cutting with it but the only part I wasn't sure was the steel, now I have a way of knowing though, thanks and have a karma.
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Post by chrisperoni on Aug 22, 2011 20:27:34 GMT
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Post by ChrisRiley93 on Aug 22, 2011 20:54:26 GMT
The stainless steel that they make blades out of are most always magnetic. Just a different composition. However, some stainless steels, ie Hanwei sword fittings, are non-magnetic stainless steel with a much lower iron content. To my way of thinking, if a stainless steel isn't magnetic, it isn't steel, it is a Chromium alloy.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 22, 2011 22:24:00 GMT
Learn something new every day. I looked into it a little more and this is what I found.
- Austenitic stainless steels are non magnetic. This makes up 70%+ of all of the stainless steel on the planet.
- Martensitic stainless steels are magnetic, but require heat treatment to make. Obviously no one is going to waste money with heat treatment on a stainless steel wall hanger, so we can probably rule this out.
- Ferritic stainless steels are magnetic. They are stronger than regular stainless, but have less corrosion resistance. So this would really only be used if the manufacturer planned on misrepresenting the sword as a carbon steel piece from the get go. Typically it is the vendor doing the misrepresentation, but it is worthy of note that this is a cheaper stainless than Austenitic. (Though the price of the steel is usually insignificant in a swords construction. I don't think there is more than $5 of steel in a sword.)
So though it is possible to get a false positive on the magnetic test it doesn't look like it would be terribly common. And if it isn't magnetic then you still know for sure it isn't carbon steel. At least until someone who knows more tells me differently.
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Post by Madax132 on Aug 22, 2011 22:28:35 GMT
Wow you really did your research, have a karma.
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Post by Sir Tre on Aug 23, 2011 2:09:08 GMT
the best way to avoid the issue is to purchase a sword from a reputable vendor.... only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!! after you research the sword from the reputable manufacturer. let's say hanwei... go to www.casiberia.com/ and look for your self, then google some trusted review sites like forum.sword-buyers-guide.com to see what folks are saying about the product. it also wouldnt hurt to google info about the steel that said sword is forged from (like banite, or 5160 for instance). i was leery about 5160 steel having so much silicon in it before getting a hanwei tinker bastard blade. so i looked up more on the steel and this marquenching thing. so i got one. wow i was totally impressed by the blade beyond the research. when i customized the handle with a pin thru it i ate 3 drill bits. what i am trying to say is an old adage " Caveat emptor" or "Let the buyer beware" the oly way you can do that is start off like you are doing... question before you buy... like you just did. i have one of the stainless/ fake carbon that was mentioned above... rust like a son-of-a-gun. but is chromium mix. had i done my research... i would have never bought it. but my brother wanted it so bad that it was fancy... so i got it. he moved out and left the piece of shite with me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2011 3:43:15 GMT
In the end Sir Tre gave you the best advice, only buy functional swords from manufacturers (and reputable dealers) that are known to be properly designed and made from suitable types of steels.
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Post by Madax132 on Aug 23, 2011 10:47:17 GMT
Thanks for the advice, I actually think I've read about every review on the sword buyers guide myself and have decided only on buying swords reviewed positively on there which would have to be at least 3 stars and none of those stars can be missing due to construction for me to buy it. I was just wondering about a few I had laying around at home that seemed to be of solid construction and looked to be carbon steel and was thinking about doing light cutting on water bottles and all that with them. I just got my first high end sword actually, darksword gothic two hander, the one reviewed on SBG
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Post by Sir Tre on Aug 26, 2011 6:59:29 GMT
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Alan Schiff
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Manufacturers and Vendors
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Post by Alan Schiff on Aug 26, 2011 17:46:29 GMT
I don't believe there is any law regarding marking steels. I have owned several wallhangers that were not marked and some that were.
Regarding a magnetic test: while it's true that the vast majority of stainless steel applications use non-magnetic (what some call "true" stainless steel), in the vast majority of non-functional swords I have seen the blades are magnetic. All of the 400 series steels (420, 440, etc) are martensitic, and are commonly used for knife and sword making. From my own research I must respectfully disagree with VeloZer0 and say that martensitic steels do not require heat treatment, but that unlike other stainless steels they can be heat treated to increase hardness and strength. This makes them ideal in cutlery applications and also explains why many wallhangers (especially katana) are labeled as having "tempered stainless steel blades." Therefore a magnetic test would definitely not rule out the use of stainless steel.
Another note: it is possible to heat treat some stainless steels so that a sword with a blade made of such material would be functional, and I have heard that some custom makers do (or used to) do so. Who they are and what types of swords they make I do not know, and it has been a couple years since I read about it.
Hope that helps, Alan
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Post by chrisperoni on Aug 26, 2011 17:59:37 GMT
Two notes- 1- I've heard that too Alan, about working stainless into a functional long blade. Someone on the forum even has a modern tanto made as such (forget who though), but it's expensive & therefore rare. (Too lazy to resarch more, sorry) 2- Velo, not that I'm trying to bust your chops ar anything ).
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Aug 27, 2011 0:59:20 GMT
I'll take your guys word for it. Everything I wrote was based on theoretical learning, in a situation like this I have no reason to contradict people with actual experience. Thanks for the correction.
If martensitic stainless is like regular steel it has to be quenched to be produced. Martensite isn't a stable form of steel, if cooled at equelibrium rates it won't be produced. There is a possibility that it behaves differently than regular steel, but I haven't seen any reference of it. If someone with more knowledge of material science could post it would be very helpful.
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