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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 18:36:25 GMT
Hey everyone! So I'm new to the forums and relatively new to serious swords. and I'm looking to learn more about swords in order to become a serious collector and not just some kid with some pretty reproductions.
I know next to nothing besides the basic types of blades, eras, and a few forging methods.
I currently own a 3k layer Black Damascus Full tang Katana. Its a beautiful blade in my opinion BUT im pretty sure it isn't what it looks like. there's no markings whatsoever to indicate the forge and from what I've learned it does appear to be machined by the perfectly straight lines running the length of the blade. Ill be posting a few pics in a bit of it.
I did purchase it at a convention. (yeah, bad move, I know that now)
All that considered I'm looking to correct that error. I am looking to have a blade custom made. I don't want to spend an insane amount, but I am looking to go the distance. so what kind of blade? Well, I love the look of darker metals like black Damascus blades so thats an obvious choice for the material as far as the size and style? to be honest I love the look and size of tantos and shoto so I was thinking about doing that. not to mention I would figure that should cost a bit less that a full size anyways! XD
SO, now the things I want to know, What do you think of the blade? Any suggestions? Anything I should probably know? Anything I should Look into? Any suggestions on where I can have the blade made? where are the places I can go look for quick simple information to expand my knowledge easily? (websites) (I figure going forum to forum is implied) Is there anywhere in Virginia particularly the Newport news Norfolk Area that deals with sword arts? eh...I think that's a decent torrent of questions XD i think Ill wait and see what ya'll have to say XD
thanks!
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Post by Neovenetar on Aug 20, 2011 18:49:04 GMT
So you want an accurate reproduction of a type of sword or you want a custom made, non-traditional sword?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 18:53:00 GMT
Hm, I want it to be traditional design, so I guess a accurate reproduction? Kinda don't like the idea of "reproduction" but I guess that's what is is huh?
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Post by Bryn on Aug 20, 2011 19:49:35 GMT
I'd say step one would be to settle on a blade design/geometry you like. There are plenty of Katana-philes here who'd be more than happy to assist you. The next step is getting the blade done. Now, custom blades in and of themselves can be pretty darn expensive, but getting a custom mounting of a quality production blade is always a good option. I'd talk to Frankthebunny. He does some really excellent custom work and he'd be more than happy to point you in the right direction.
For what it's worth, I think it might be a good intermediate step to get a custom mounting of a Kris Cutlery Katana blade in custom mountings before shelling out to get a full custom. Just my .02.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 20:20:13 GMT
Welcome to the forum then. I consider myself new here myself, but anyway Baltimore Knife and Sword stated that "If you can draw it, they can build it" I am from VA originally too , and it seems like the best bet for custom work. (Nearby). IDK about the japanese crap, I'm into more European ,based and modern tactical stuff myself. Good Luck! EDIT: Oh,Also beware of some of the production "Damascus" or pattern welded stuff, some of it is mixtures which can NEVER be properly hardened, and should never be used for edged stuff IMO. Research and knowledge of the metal combo is necessary IMO.
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Post by MuerteBlack on Aug 20, 2011 20:59:47 GMT
Well first off, I would actually advise you before I say what I have to say here that, as a modern collector, your choices are pretty much only limited to what YOU think looks great; you don't have to be bound by tradition. And what you think looks great is really the only thing that matters in my opinion; so if you like the way your black Damascus blade looks, you can find a lot of makers who would be willing to replicate it and it would make for a very functional and good sword if made by a maker of the right skill. However, since you mentioned you wanted to get something traditional or at least a production close to traditional I thought I would chime in...
First, "Damascus," although the term is often used, is not correct for the steel type. It has become popular in the modern sword community to refer to any piece of metal with a skin pattern on it as "Damascus" but it is almost always not. Actual Damascus steel is... well.... actually, a European name for Wootz steel which primarily came out of India during the middle ages and was never folded or forge welded in any way. The ingot was forged as-is, and the grain pattern was not weld lines and was a natural feature of the composition of the steel.
The correct term for the steel in many swords such as yours is "pattern-welded" which means that two types of steel (such as 1065 and 1095, for example) were forge-welded together in thin strips into an ingot which was then folded before being forged into its final shape. The reason why it is blackened is because it was given an acid bath after polishing in order to expose the layers of welded steel. However, pattern-welded steel is not traditional on katana. It was used on early period swords in Europe (think viking, celtic, saxon, etc) and was never used in Japanese swords.
Japanese swords were traditionally made from folded steel. For modern reproductions, this essentially means that a single billet of steel is folded as opposed to strips of two types of steel. For traditional aesthetics this is important because it generally results (if done correctly) in a smaller, tighter visible pattern on the side of the blade. The steel still rarely looks traditional because of the time and cost of a traditional polish but can still look very nice.
However, this is your sword which will be viewed and handled by you. That means that if you like the look of pattern welded steel better, then that is what you should get. The only reason I posted this is to provide some information that I hope will be helpful with making an informed decision. I hope it helps!
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Post by Neovenetar on Aug 20, 2011 21:32:15 GMT
Why get custom fittings on a traditional sword? I mean if you bought a production sword, why is there much of a need to change the fittings, do you have a design in mind?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 22:18:00 GMT
Thanks Bryn for the suggestion, that defin. sounds like it might be a good idea if it turns out that I can't affourd going the full distance of blade and mounting Thanks For the warning Derek And thats a pretty decent history lesson Muerte, I hadn't thought about all that. I greatly appreciate it. Now neo...I think Im missing something, with a little more info I should put it that I want to have a blade forged and then fitted custom. Im not sure why you wouldn't get custom fittings on a personal sword. and I don't think Im trying to get a production sword. I have a general design in mind...a tonto or shoto forged in black Damascus (which if im correct in my understanding muerte would make it non traditional] maybe go with standard fittings now and then get something a bit more stylish later, or go the distance and have it custom fitted to start with. and again Im taking custom fitted to mean the grip the wrap, the tsuba and etc. as far as the fitting goes the only idea Ive got right now is dark black or blue scheme. No Tsuba
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2011 0:05:24 GMT
Okay so, looking to the blade, Im looking for a darker metal, what's out there?
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Post by MuerteBlack on Aug 21, 2011 1:06:20 GMT
Actually, pretty much anything you want. Even the "Damascus" blades would be bright and shiny if they were polished using only stones or sandpaper. The dark is caused by the acid bath and would darken any non-stainless steel. The purpose of the acid is, in addition to darkening the steel, to make the pattern of layers in the forge-welded steel visible to the naked eye.
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Post by bloodwraith on Aug 21, 2011 3:01:26 GMT
It would also help if you give us some idea of your budget? I would actually suggest buying a few production swords of different weights and balances before going custom. The last thing you want to do is spend all that money on a custom and then be disappointed that it isn't what you imagined. I've had that happen to me once and it was my fault for not knowing exactly what I was looking for. If you are looking to get a custom made katana, get a few cheaper katanas first, you can always sell them later and you will get a very good idea of weight and balance.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 21, 2011 6:09:02 GMT
There has been some good advice given already, but I'll chime in on possible solutions to darkening metal. There's the acid bath method, like has been suggested. Certain acids do darken steel, by way of oxidation, if memory serves. Basically, they rust them...differently than normal rust. Like bluing. Which happens to be my favorite method for darkening steel. I have an old Generation 2 Norman dagger that was stripped, polished, and all metal parts blued. Tis a thing of beauty. Ah, found the picture. Top is the Gen2, middle is my old Hanwei Tactical Tanto (I miss it so. ) Both of these blades were blued; would that be a desirable color for you? Maybe more gray, or blacker? The bottom there is a Cold Steel LTC Kukri, which was just powder coated in a black enamel or some such. It scrapes off, stains, and looks bad. Don't go that option. I have a small folding knife and a Kabar Warthog that have been "painted" black, for lack of a better description. It's bubbling up, cracking, and falling off. I haven't even used them. :roll: There are companies out there that use "titanium nitride (or was it nitrate?)" to add colors to their blades, which generally permeate the steel on a near-molecular level, such that it won't crack or fade or polish off. ...Ideally. But I've no experience with this method and I've heard some scary things about it, which I will let the more informed fill in. I have also had a "damascus" katana and Hanwei's Godfred Viking sword, both given the acid bath treatment to turn the blades a more dull gray color, but didn't really care for either, aesthetically. The katana was a piece of crap in every sense, the Godfred, well, had its issues, but overall at least was a nice sword. The key point of polishing is the primary; a low-grit, but even polish will result in a less-shiny blade, that will, by this virtue, appear to be darker in color than a blade with a more advanced polish, but there are areas of compromise to debate on this. Really, the best thing that can be said is to find out for yourself exactly what you want, then find out who does it the "best" in your eyes...then start saving those pennies because you'll probably be needing a lot of them. If you find a production sword that "fits" what you need, and it's inexpensive, awesome. Get it. Hopefully you stay as happy with it as the day you got it. If you decide to go custom, be prepared to watch your costs rise between smiths, specs, and mountings.
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Post by Neovenetar on Aug 21, 2011 10:55:28 GMT
You could always get a blued blade, but that's not traditional at all. There's also this black yet polished finish, but I don't know what that's called.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2011 18:54:41 GMT
Neovenetar - Seems like you're getting hung up on the whole traditional thing. I guess a better way to put it would be I want a blade with a traditional shape? does that clear it up? and I do apologize everyone if my terminology is so poor. I really am just a novice, but that why im here ^_^
Thanks random nobody, blued definitely seems like a possible way to go, and it def, sounds and looks about what I'm looking for when it comes to the tone of the blade. is it actually possible to get it even closer to black? maybe even a bluish black color? and btw thanks alot for the pictures, makes life alot easier to know exactly what Im being told about XD
which that brings me back to you muerte, does the blade actually turn out "black" as in the color? from what it sounds like it turns out a blade with just a bunch of lines running down its length. maybe a picture? i've tried to search it but the variety of results that comes up >,<
and that's sounds like a pretty decent plan blood wrath, although I think given that the blade I'm looking to get is a much smaller blade, and I've handled a few before, so I think Ive got that down. even so I would like to find a local forge and see if maybe I could heft the metal a bit just to see ^_^. and I am actually planning to sell my current katana. just need to get it appraised. my camera's kinda broken right now so I've got to find an alternative method to upload photos
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Post by MuerteBlack on Aug 22, 2011 0:58:41 GMT
It really depends on the hardness of the steel after heat treat and how long the acid etch is performed. However, it sounds like bluing is even closer to what you want. An example of what bluing can do can be seen in the crossguard and pommel of this DSA sword found hereNote however that both acid etching and bluing only affect the surface finish of the steel, and scratches and abrasions will expose the shiny surface underneath.
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Post by frankthebunny on Aug 22, 2011 1:53:29 GMT
wow! you just have to love the incredible amount of great information given so quickly here. top notch! since there is so much already stated above that I fully agree with I will only mention a couple of small things myself. bluing could be a nice affect when done properly but it is far from scratch proof as is some types of etching so this brings up the question, will you be using this blade to cut targets often, or at all? if so, this could become very frustrating to you having to constantly touch up the scratches. even when the scratch might not actually go all the way down to the metals surface, you could still see them from certain angles. would this bother you? I am not completely sure if you are saying you do or do not want there to be a grain pattern in the steel. if so, then I would be very cautious of cheaply welded or folded steel. this can be less stable than a good mono steel if not done properly. I will also suggest what I usually do to newcomers, now that you're here, spend some time in the Japanese sword section and sword reviews section to get a better feel of what's out there and what you would like most. people often change their minds and tastes from when they first get here. since you seem like you're interested in a good investment, you could only benefit from spending more time gathering knowledge. good luck and enjoy your time here
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Post by Enkidu on Aug 22, 2011 17:16:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2011 18:17:26 GMT
Drat, that was what I was afraid of. It there any metal that is inherently dark? and when I say dark I mean not silver? Im okay if it's reflective and shiney, but I was looking for a blade with a black-ish tone to to it. as for how often I plan to use this blade, I can say not often at the moment, even so I would like to have a blade that I COULD use every day. otherwise It wouldn't seem like an actual blade to me. and thanks once again to the responses, this is really alot of help ^_^ and frank I took a look at your website. that is a very nice portfolio!
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Post by MuerteBlack on Aug 22, 2011 21:04:28 GMT
Hmm.... that's a tough one. If you want a functional cutting sword then you are pretty much restricted to a blade made of steel. I don't know of any alloying element that would make the steel inherently dark, especially without negative effects on the blade's strength. It doesn't mean that there isn't one, but I don't know of it.
Although I would guess that if it did exist we would probably see a lot of production swords made with it as a marketing thing.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are most likely going to be stuck with a choice of either acid etching or bluing.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 23, 2011 21:38:44 GMT
Oops, forgot to mention the surface bit of bluing. Though I wonder if it's possible for a stronger or longer coating to produce darker colors or deeper penetration, without messing up the steel too badly? Likewise acid etching... I also can't think of any steels that are inherently dark in color. Most "non-silver" blades are simply not polished to be so shiny...so if shiny is what you want, silver is what you get. A quick Google search for "black damascus" turns up this model from WKC: www.wkc-sports.com/JAP09BW283.html...Which claims, "The dark color of the blade is the color of the steel, which is achieved by a special technique. It is not a surface-coating which might reduce the sharpness of the edge. The colouring results in better visual effects of the folded steel pattern as well as the hamon line and different hardening areas." but that leaves more holes than it fills. Only other thing coming up is this fellow here: www.swordsofmight.com/black-damascus-katana.aspx which gives even LESS information on the black color. Okay so there's also these things: www.amazon.com/Shinwa-Black-Doub ... B004V5XJMQ www.kitrae.net/fantasy/KR0007D_ad.html...but I'm just not going to go there~
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