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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 5:08:00 GMT
First time poster / first time sword buyer.
I am not trained to fight with a sword.
But, I am looking for a battle ready sword that I could use for home defense if necessary.
I like the Celtic sword reviewed on this site, but I have never handled it. It looks like a single hand sword, and I'm thinking I don't want my free hand flying around while I'm swinging a sword...something else to cut by accident. I'm thinking that I should wield my sword with two hands. I'm comfortable swinging two-handed, and it seems like I could deliver more power that way. If the Celtic sword can be wielded 2-handed, I think I would go for it.
But is my concern unwarranted? Is one-handed the way to fight? Or, should I go for a hand-and-a-half sword or a katana-style sword with a larger handle to allow a two-handed grip?
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Post by chrisperoni on Aug 16, 2011 5:23:05 GMT
Hello Ned, I can't really recommend a sword for home defense but being that I keep a bokken behind my front door much like many people keep a baseball bat, I'll leave that debate to others. I will say that a sword is hard to swing/use properly indoors. A single handed short sword such a gladius would be easier to wield indoors- so maybe a single handed shorter blade is more for you, On the other hand I have come to find most people say a two handed sword is easier to get a good cut with for new users. SInce I think you're more likely to do backyard cutting vs. defending your home I personally would recommend a 2 handed sword for your first. (just to confuse things even more :twisted: I have also read that whatever type of sword a person first tries becomes the kind they like best and are best at)
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Post by NIM7 on Aug 16, 2011 5:27:04 GMT
If you want a self-defence weapon besides a projectile weapon I would advise a knife. Swords are generally made to kill and not for self defence. However, just having a sword to an opponent will be enough for a shock factor if the opponent is welding a knife or nothing and most likely will retreat.
Besides all those factors, lets just say a 2 handed weapon would be suited for you. As one handed weapons are generally more harder to master. 1 handed swords are more of a thrust and kill weapon where 2 handed swords are swing and slice. 2 handed weapons would be easier for you and beginners. I would advise having some training in the way of a sword your own time.
This is my opinion.
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Post by Maynar on Aug 16, 2011 5:35:20 GMT
Welcome, Ned. I think the first idea you need to address is, what are the laws in your area? Many places in this world frown on defending yourself with deadly weapons so let's establish where you are on this planet, then go from there. Ok? Don't want to end up in jail now, do we? For a grip, katana handles are long enough to accomodate two hands easily, and two hands definitely means more power to the cut. Also a through-hardened blade will be the most forgiving type of temper in a katana style weapon, thus a good choice for beginners. Smaller Japanese-style weapons like the wakizashi are meant to be wielded with a single hand, only trial and error will enable you to decide what is right for you. Finally, a sword without training would be a bad choice for home defense (see my first comment). But I'm sure there will be no shortage of posters who can give you much better advice that I. If home defence is your primary concern I'm sure you will receive good insight here, but it may not be quite what you expect. Good luck.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 16, 2011 9:11:58 GMT
Can't agree with you here. If a sword is more cut or thrust depends more on the blade profile and handling characteristics than whether it is one or two handed. To say that one handed swords are more "thrust and kill" while two handers are generally used with a swing is simply crap.
One handed meapons also aren't hader to master in my experience. The high level longsword work is every bit as complex and sophisticated as sword and buckler or messer. For beginners, two handers sometimes are easier as it can feel comforting and more secure to have both hands on the weapon.
Regarding home defense: apart from the fact that a sword is a very poor defense weapon, if you have to get one, I'd sggest a short one handed sword, be it a gladius, wakizashi or fantasy style tac sword. Just short, light and comfortable for you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 9:56:57 GMT
Most people like the idea of a sword for home defense, but you'd use something like a stick or baton as your first choice because the degree of force in the response can be controlled, and this has legal implications too, as responding with disproportionate force would count against you. A sword's response is primarily lethal, so it would be a last resort weapon, as would be a firearm. A moments foolishness can lead to a lifetime of regret...
The worst thing anyone could do it try to defend themselves with something they don't know how to use. Whatever you use, try to get some training, for your own safety, nothing worse than hitting yourself accidentally or unintentionally supplying an assailant with a weapon.
From a purely theoretical perspective, If you look at it historically, the gladius was used in close quarters, the samurai used their wakizashi indoors, this should give you some guidance in terms of what weapon is used where These are all one-handers. They allow the second hand to grapple or use a shield. Some two hander such as a ko-katana have similar close range capability.
The reality is that most people ponder the 'idea' of using a sword for defence, but the reality is that it is the least likely thing they would ever use. Ask yourself why you'd choose a sword over anything else, and if it's because you 'just like swords' then get into swords for the interest, and make the home defence a separate concern.
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Post by NIM7 on Aug 16, 2011 11:43:46 GMT
Sorry for any miss-consumptions, Im just mealy saying through my experience. What I was really referring to was through Chinese arts. I forgot about Western one handed swords/arts lol.
I didnt want to go into full detail so that was the reason why I only said "thrust and kill" etc. Of cause there is more to that and you are right, but just to keep it simple I merely said it in that way. I could of used "Contrary to popular belief, the typical jian is a cut-and-thrust weapon in the true sense of the word and thus capable of chops, deft slices, and of course the thrust. To sum it up in one phrase, the jian excels in versatility; hence the belief that it requires great skill. Jian were traditionally made in duan (short) and chang (long) variations.":lol: Depending on the art itself would put an outcome of what is "harder" or "easier", as well as the person themselves.
All in all we both agree a short weapon is best for "home self-defence".
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 16, 2011 16:34:53 GMT
OK, I don't know anything about chinese martial arts so if single handers are seen as harder in chinese swording, that's ok and I believe it. It just doesn't go for swords in general.
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Post by Anders on Aug 16, 2011 18:15:20 GMT
I'm not getting into the whole self-defense thing. However, In regards to wether or not two-handed swords are easier to use then single-handers, I actually find it's the other way around. Swinging with two hands does feel more intuitive and may generate more powerful strikes, but adding an arm restricts your over-all movements and range. In other words, unless you have the technique to make use of that extra power, you don't benefit that much. I personally find the single-handed fighting feels more natural and grants more control. Of course, a lot of this comes down to the weight and balance of the sword itself.
NedoftheHill, I would first of all recommend trying out some kind of swordsmanship training just to see what suits you. If there's nobody nearby to teach you, at least check out some of the many youtube demonstration videos to get an idea of how ones swings a sword, then get yourself some sticks or something and spend some time swinging them. What kind of sword fits a person the most is kinda individual. It's best if you learn this with your body before making any serious commitments.
That said, I'm not sure which celtic sword you are talking about. The Hanwei or the Del Tin? "Hand-and-a-half" swords actually tend to be kinda long since they typically represent a middle-ground between longsword and large arming sword. Katana are actually pretty okay if you do decide on a two-hander - all the hype aside, they tend to be relatively short while still packing a punch, making them pretty decent for close quarters fighting. Plus, you can find them in pretty much all price classes.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 16, 2011 18:25:54 GMT
How about a katana or a wakisashi whose handle is long enough to accommodate two hands? I own a couple/three Dawson swords which fit this formula: The first two have 21" length blades. (The third a full size kat to compare against.) Check out the Hanwei Tactical Wak: reviewed here by pirate, and by odingaard. A much cheaper alternative. Why not an inexpensive Cold Steel Machete? Either the Kukri (<$20): Or a Bolo or one of the shorter (18") Latins? The new gladius machete looks like a winner, but I don't know when it will become available. For home defense I have chosen a firearm as my primary. A sword is way down on the list of backup weapons.
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Post by Anders on Aug 16, 2011 18:40:31 GMT
There is also the tactical katana version. I'm still waiting for someone to buy and review that one.
Incidentally, am I the only one who has no problem swinging a 27" sword indoors? I never really understood the whole "wakizashi is for indoor fighting" idea.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Aug 16, 2011 18:56:20 GMT
honestly in my opinion buy a bokken,it's a tempting thought to think that a sword would be good for home defense,the problem lies in the fact that the sword's primary function is to kill,even if you feel you may just aim for a leg or an arm the chances are it would lead to a mortal injury,and if you have no training there's a strong likelyhood you may even harm you'reself with it, if by chance you were broken into and had to use it,even if you're life was in jeapordy i would imagine most courts would take a long hard look at you,if firearms are legal in you're country and a gun is acceptable buy a gun,a gun would be looked on as being a civilized weapon compared to the sword (as strange as that is,we all know what a noble weapon the sword is,but i imagine the courts would see it differently) if you're set on getting a sword purely for home defense i recommend the hanwei tactical wakisashi,or any carbon steel ninjato,something cheap and of maneagble size for close quarters, without too much curviture and can take a reasonable edge, edit welcome to the forum ned
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Aug 16, 2011 19:10:03 GMT
Agree with Anders. Aesthetically, not to mention because a lot of groups are treating longsword as "foundational" and because I dream of fictional characters with longswords, I have a psychological impetus to veer toward two hand use.
Unfortunately, I've found over the years that my own thought processes and especially my build (average height but thick across chest and shoulders) is MUCH more conducive to one-handers.
For recreation might I suggest getting one of each and figuring out for yourself?
As for "home defense" I'd only echo what others have said. It's a legal quagmire you'd want to avoid. Better off with a non-lethal arm and/or a gun and proper training. (Believe it or not, you'd probably have an easier and more straightforward legal process to deal with after having used a gun than a sword.)
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 16, 2011 21:22:18 GMT
Do you know of any cases where the use of a sword/knife instead of a firearm (when lethal force was jusified) that turned the case against the defender?
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 16, 2011 21:59:28 GMT
Interesting perspective. When one deploys a firearm there must exist the conditions for the use (or threatened use) of lethal force. So one must already have justifiable reasons "to kill" to deploy the weapon. Home invaders deserve harsh treatment (most probably death). I will not be thinking of expending just enough force no matter what the law may indicate. I don't know what he (or they) are armed with. I must assume that they are there to do me and my family grievous bodily harm or they would have chosen a more equitable form of economic exchange. A katana can always be used for thrusting, although it is more versatile. But in this vein a small sword would produce bullet sized entry wounds, if one is concerned about such perceptions. The hallway is in effect "the strip". A redoublement, or fleche, thrust home. So, how about a small sword of some stripe? It's a one handed weapon, 30" thrusting blade and easy to deploy in tight space. Of course, you should probably take up foil fencing to use it effectively.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Aug 16, 2011 22:28:31 GMT
i understand what you're getting at larry,im talking from a uk perspective,but still i cant help but think that even in the us a gun would be looked upon more kindly than a sword when it comes to lethal response,dont get me wrong in an ideal world if someone breaks into you're home,for me they automatically forego any rights to leniancy,and if they've broken into you're home justifiable lethal force by any and all means should be acceptable, its increasingly not that kind of world though (im talking uk but i imagine you guys arent too far away) i cant help but feel that any court of law would look upon a gun as a more civilized and therefore accepted means of dealing with an inruder,a sword like a knife is a very personal and up close weapon(a knife even more so but lets face it everyone owns a kitchen knife) for me a sword would just lead to questions about my own mindset (why does he like swords and medievil combat? he must be strange and therefore of questionable character) this is just my thoughts as a uk citizen though,it may be different in america/australia or wherever,over here an incedental weapon i think would be looked upon more leniently,be it a set of golf clubs,a bedside lamp,a claw hammer you just happened to have lying around,that could be explained away,a sword in the bedroom poses more questions,it shouldn't be like that but well its not an ideal world if you put a burglar down with a well placed sword thrust or a well aimed .45acp round the results are the same,the prosecutor may differ on that thought though good call on the small sword though
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Post by chuckinohio on Aug 16, 2011 23:59:49 GMT
Actually, current sentiment in the US as a whole leans towards a burglar getting whatever he deserves, regardless of the means of administration. There are certain areas where a more touchy feely crowd still holds sway, but by and large the current public sentiment towards criminals is "They get what they get"
Now, if you beheaded and dismembered the intruder, then you may run afoul of excessive force restrictions, but with that said, I don't see a jury in my area frowning on you for using whatever means were at your disposal to neutralize an imminent threat.
Falchions for Justice says I.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 17, 2011 0:46:39 GMT
talon, I practice shinkendo in the living room of my home but the chandelier lamp in the LR makes it difficult. My 42" bokken has scored walls, columns, overhanging beams, lamp fixtures. If I were to use it as you intend, it would run the same risks. How about a brass knob'd cane? It's shorter than a bokken (37" vs. 42") and has that mace-like thingy on the end. Fashionable Canes: Atlanta Cutlery: I hear that baseball bats are popular in the troubled regions of the UK as we speak. What about this 29" Cold Steel sporting unit? And, who could fault an aging/recovering fellow with a cane. Sportsman or not a bat named "Crusher" may be problematic.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 17, 2011 1:10:48 GMT
Legalities in the matter of home defense would only be an afterthought to me once my family's safety had been secured. That said I'm not so concerned with legalities although I will lean more toward a method of defense that kept me closer to being legal and safe than safe but in trouble with the law. Anyway let's say for argument's sake one disregarded legalities and only focused on home defense.
That being the case I still wouldn't go for a melee weapon as my primary defensive weapon. As a secondary or backup weapon I'd use exactly what Larry Jordan suggested - a cane with a heavy brass ball. Of course I'd hope to never have to reach for that since if I have to reach for that something has gone drastically wrong anyway and chances are I'm now in the fight of my life. My first choice would be a firearm... or if not a firearm at least a ranged weapon of some sort. I've heard of people using youth compound bows and hunting arrows as home defense weapons. Even a bow with just a 30lb draw can kill a human being. Personally I'm all for a 12ga. pump shotgun loaded with 4 shot. Won't shoot through and through - meaning total kinetic energy deposit into a human size body at 10 to 15yds and at that distance the spread is close enough that so long as you're a decent shot you won't have to worry about errant shot hitting something they're not intended to hit. If that's not available I'd go for my 1911 loaded with 230gr JHP P+. Only if I've somehow managed to miss the intruder with all the ammo loaded in either firearm would I consider reaching for a melee weapon... heaven forbid I hit with all of that ammo and the intruder is still coming... Of course if I failed my wife will be waiting in our bedroom with our children and an AK loaded with AP rounds. My 13yr old will be standing by with the AR-15 also loaded with AP rounds.
I know I seem a bit paranoid but well I've lived in the ghetto and while I'm not in the ghetto now its hard to get the mindset out of one's mind. When you've had bullets fly through your window at 20:00 due to a drive by shooting outside your house you get real paranoid real fast.
So about swords and home defense - it is my unprofessional advice to leave that on the sword stand and reach for a gun. Oh proper training in the use of a gun for defense would be a good idea too. As for swords I love swords but wouldn't consider one for home defense. Get some sword training though and get a sword that suits you well. It'll make backyard cutting more enjoyable and should the zombie apocalypse come in our lifetime a sword that suits you well will make your last stand on earth more effective so you can buy your family more time to escape before you are overwhelmed.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Aug 17, 2011 2:37:33 GMT
Knife? No. Nor are most knife defenses like a sword. Not based on existing case law, as I'm not even aware of any cases to begin with. But absolutely from principles of what, for a civilian, is considered "self defense."
Marc MacYoung's online resources are far more in-depth than anything I'll go into, but most people are grossly in error with folk conceptions of what is considered "reasonable" in self-defense situations. Even in one's home.
Self defense, in a legal sense, requires that the person in question have done everything in his/her power to avoid having to use lethal force in the first place. If armed and walking through a neighborhood where one has been previously threatened, for example, it's considered evidence that the armed person was looking for a confrontation, and negates the self-defense argument.
Even within your own home, if there is any indication one was relishing the idea of having to use a weapon, there's an extremely high likelihood the DA in that jurisdiction will prosecute. Worse, even if there is no criminal liability prosecuted, anyone can file civil suit. As my original C&C instructor--no "bleeding heart" shrinking violet by any means--put it, "Rest assured that you will almost certainly go bankrupt in legal proceedings if you ever have to use your firearm ... because even if your attacker was a two-time gang-tatted convict who battered down the door to your bedroom to go after you in a corner, he has a brother/sister/mother--probably with no money and even more incentive--who will sue you. And find a lawyer willing to take the case in a heartbeat."
(In other words, the timeless paradox of defense. "You need to be willing to recognize and act on a legitimate threat in a split-second, yes, but doing so successfully will still ruin your life. So it better actually be your life at stake.")
This is all why you want to use an effective ammo (e.g. a Golden Sabre) but don't want to use an "exotic" (e.g. expensive frag rounds specifically designed for good home defense). It's why you want to have an amiable smile on your C&C permit, not look like a scowling psycho.
And it's why, even if you have swords, you want to keep them secure--and instead use an effective but "normal" weapon in home defense. News flash: most people will look askew at those of us who have swords. We all know it. Ergo, using one in a real maiming or killing, even "self defense," will rarely evoke understanding in the legal system. And yes, that advice has come straight from a number of people I've talked to in law, C&C training, and law enforcement.
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