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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2007 20:44:30 GMT
yes, best to stay in behind locked doors, trust no-one except the authoritys. They know whats best for you. Establishment, establishment, you always know what's best...
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2007 20:57:46 GMT
I'm not sure about other places, but her in California, we're allowed to use 'reasonable force' to protect ourselves, which means, basically, that we can use up to the amount of force being used against us, to protect ourselves.
If someone attacks me with a knife, I'm allowed to fight him unarmed or with a knife. If I use a gun, all of a sudden I become the agressor because I've got more power.
It gets really tricky with multiple man attacker scenarios. If three men attack me unarmed... I can only defend myself unarmed...if I use a knife and injure an attacker, all of a sudden it becomes: Man with knife wounds man unarmed.
Which is why I like the system with impartial juries to sort things out. It helps preserve the 'spirit of the law' rather than the 'letter of the law'.
That being said, I'm confident in my unarmed(or armed with wooden weapons) ability to defend myself and my own without causing serious injury. In situations where I'm forced to use more damaging tactics, I will. But I don't expect to ever be pushed that far.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 3:47:24 GMT
Hello all, I am new here but would like to give a few words on this subject as I have discussed it at length many times.
It is very easy for people to make a judgment as to whether or not they could fatally injure a home intruder. It is another thing for such a doctrine to be carried out in a split second decision with emotion and adrenaline flowing. As such, I believe this type situation should be approached differently and can only offer my personal experience.
When I became a homeowner I was faced with the decision of how to protect myself in the event of an intrusion. My training in toyama ryu allowed me the option of safely using shinken but after careful thought and consideration I decided against it for a few reasons. Training in such an art allows one to act without emotion but rather with reflex. However, that reflex is what makes the outcome of such a situation far more likely to be a fatality, not to mention a bloody mess and the strain of wrongful death litigation regardless of the laws in my state. Remember, just because you have a good legal defense doesn't necessarily mean you wont be prosecuted, and who needs that headache.
So, with this in mind I decided the best home defense is my bokken and cordless phone. The problem with home intrusion is the weapon factor and not knowing what the intruder is carrying. As such, I find it most reasonable to keep an offensive position and not confronting anyone in the open. However, in order to achieve this position one needs to make some basic preparation. So, my bed and weapon placement are decided carefully. Now come the plan of action, which consists of all possible *if/thens*. This can take some time but once you have a basic strategy it has to be practiced on a regular basis.
Many of my friends have faith in the pistol or shotgun method. I have problems with this because the use of firearms quickly takes you from the offensive to the defensive particularly if there is more than one intruder or if you happen to miss your target. The muzzle flash instantly gives away your position and thus puts you in harms way. It is also unwise to keep a firearm chambered at all times which means you will need to chamber it at the time of intrusion, again, possibly giving away your position. Lastly, use of a firearm yields a higher risk of fatality, and then we have to revisit the whole defending yourself in court thing.
So, at the end of the day my plan is to stay low in a covered position making a call to local law enforcement with a very brief and quiet description of the situation and leaving the line open. I only confront the intruder if he/she/they enter my space where I will have the element of surprise. A bokken is more than capable of disarming and putting down any intruder without high risk of fatality.
It should be noted however that I am single without children in the home which of course makes a considerable difference. But in an effort to minimize this already lengthy post I will leave that for another time.
The biggest part to this whole process is practice no different than any other waza. This keeps your adrenaline in check and your head clear of indecision. It should be automatic without hesitation. I periodically have BBQ's where friends come over to hang out for a while and then take the opportunity to enter my home from any door or window to put this process into motion. Makes for an interesting friday night.;D They think its fun and I think its great training and experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 5:28:07 GMT
okay it might sound a little unlikely and strange but lately i was wondering a few things that put my mind to work:P this is all in theory and highly unlikely to happen in your real life But as good as your techniques with a sword (or any other weapon) and as perfect as your cutting technique may be there is a difference in cutting some tatami and a real human beeing so here is the question would your mind be strong enough to slay another human beeing without doubting for a sec (cuz after all a sword is a weapon and the only art a swordsman can practice is to kill) so imagine you have to fight someone who threatens to kill you with his sword and you know only one will walk out alive how strong is your mind in today's modern kenjutsu and other arts there are some other spiritual tweaks to but if you look at history this is what a sword was ment to do (and i hope no one has to make the choice i just wrote down but it is an interesting point to think about) yes. It is.
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Post by chakobsa on Aug 11, 2007 0:06:44 GMT
In america, if he's in your home... He's a dead man I don't know about oz, but I know in scotland, you have to make every attempt to avoid conflct including running away from your home as it is being burglarized. Talk about insane... semprinis; www.lemac.co.uk/resources/publication/assault.html
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Post by rammstein on Aug 11, 2007 0:27:08 GMT
According to what I've seen scots post in SFI, what I've heard is correct. I may obviously be wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2007 10:24:26 GMT
I have trained iaido every dam day for a few years, due to that i train every day i have got training that may i know that have trained 4-5 years longer than me do not have since they never trained with the same intensity. Alright i was surprised several times, lucky enough for them how surprised me i did not have a sharp sword in my hands. One time now i do not remember exactly what happened, but they startled me and a sort of "auto pilot" took over and the second after i turned around i had stuck an small wooden branch from a tree over "kesa" (diagonal cut from liver to collar bone) Another time i was surprised and used a high level okuden kata witch if i had a sword would have resulted in someones face would have been penetrated. When i have done this i still have had control to stop it, but the reaction were this. And my girlfriend startled me and got very scared she said that my eyes changed and got something she did not know how to describe it.
So yes i am pretty sure that i will use iaido techniques by default not as an choice, and i know this, i will not store a shinken in my near surroundings so that i would use it on someone that was to hurt me, bokuto is just fine to hurt/disarm someone. And i live in Sweden, we have very very twisted laws, ex, if i was to kill someone in selfdefence, and this attacker had a gun or something shooting directly towards me (guns is not common by general people here) and i would kill him with a shinken or bokuto then i will get charged with something similar to manslaughter regardless of the reason i had to kill him, i will spend 3-7 years in prison. So that alone is a reason to use wood instead of sharpened steal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2007 20:14:14 GMT
I'm not sure about other places, but her in California, we're allowed to use 'reasonable force' to protect ourselves, which means, basically, that we can use up to the amount of force being used against us, to protect ourselves. If someone attacks me with a knife, I'm allowed to fight him unarmed or with a knife. If I use a gun, all of a sudden I become the agressor because I've got more power. Can you provide California case law which establishes this? California Self Defense and Knife LawSelf-Defense - California Jury Instruction Code Section 5.30 The following is read to jurors who sit on criminal court cases in California involving defendants who have been charged with assault and battery (CPC 240 - 242) and are claiming self-defense. "It is lawful for a person who is being assaulted to defend himself/herself from attack, if, as a reasonable person s/he has grounds for believing and does believe that bodily injury is about to be inflicted upon him/her. In doing so, that person must use all force and means which s/he believes to be reasonably necessary and which would appear to a reasonable person, in the same or similar circumstances, to be necessary to prevent the injury which appears to be imminent." In defensive pistol classes we run through drills which demonstrate how close someone with a knife has to be in order for them to be a legitimate threat. At 21' the knife wielding attacker can usually "touch" the defender before he can draw and fire two shots, and this only if he knows beforehand that the attack is coming. Ability, Intent and Means (AIM) A knife wielding home invader has the ability and the means. The difficult question is whether he has the intent. He is, afterall, armed and in your house. He's not there to render you assistance. He could be drunk and stumbled into the wrong house and is a bit disoriented--it happens. However, what would a "reasonable person" surmise? Yeah, he's in you house to take your stuff and cut or kill you for whatever reason. You can respond with a verbal command to "drop the weapon" or "leave". If he doesn't comply, you may have run out of options. Only you can judge. What's he waiting for? Is he planning a charge? Planning to evade into a child's bedroom and take a hostage for leverage? I know what I would do. It would be "reasonable." I wouldn't give up my HG for a knife or stick where the chance for injury goes way up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2007 19:36:12 GMT
I'd like to add a few words too. First of all, this discussion has nothing to do about the philosophies behind the sword. This is about using the sword. The sword is meant to be used as a leathal weapon. So this would be "philosophies behind using the sword/killing". As a military i can assure you there's absolutely nothing philosophical behind killing. Of course i am armed with everything what kills except a sword. And luckily i have never killed. But the real thing (killing) is much like training. And with training you don't hesitate, you do whatever you have to do. To much doubt, and you end up death on the battlefield. (off course i'm talking about the moment itself, afterwards you could end up with a trauma) With intruders it is much the same. Even if its illegal, if someone threatens you, or your family, your protecting them. If that includes killing, you just don't hesitate. In our Law (in the Netherlands) there is this simple rule; you may defend yourself in 'selfdefence'. They state selfdefence as 'if your or someone else's dignity our live is at stake, you may defend yourself with the power thats needed'. So if someone has a firearm or knife pointed at you, you may slay the living semprini out of him. I say this less philosophical as possible. However, the big problem is, how would you ever defend yourself in court when you kill?! You could never prove your live was in danger. Without proving that, the judge would easily go for the opinion of the prosecutor. In that case, an intruder knocked out by a baseball-bat (or boken or whatever) is kept alive, and you will go free. There are a hell of a lot gaps in our law, and not only in the Netherlands. Every law has its gaps. So whatever you do to an intruder, it would be always wrong. (myself, i would hit him with something) Another strange thing in our law, you must first ask an intruder twice to please leave the house, before you can make any action! Gr, Patrick
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2007 21:42:36 GMT
well when i started the treath i was aiming more at the spiritual thoughts behind the sword like in comparison your sword becomes an extension of your body but in real battle it has to become an extension of your mind and like i said it proberbly won't happen in real life handling a sword is one thing but to become one with it is another don't know if anyone here ever heard of it i think the translation means something like swordsman spirit and myamoto mushashi named it body of rock or something like that and he has a li'll story about a rich man who came to seek an answer to his question what this particular technique ment mushashi summoned a student and told him to kill himself and a moment before the student went trough with it mushashi stopped him and said to the rich man that's body of rock
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2007 23:38:51 GMT
I'm having a real hard time reading your post. Because it doesn't have those punctuation marks like dots, or comma's... However, i did understand your point. But i can't discuss about that. I'm just a real beginner at swords. The only thing i can say, whenever i hold a sword, it really possesses me in a good kind of way. I could just hold that thing for hours. But i don't know any philosophy about that! Gr, Patrick
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2007 23:46:49 GMT
Philosopical words of wisdom? Let's see... Better to be tried by 12 then carried by six; "he pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He might send you to the hospital, you send him to the morge." I would unhesitatingly neutralize any threat to me or my loved ones by any means necessary as quickly as possible and worry about the legal aspects later. What's worth more to you realistically: your life or a lawsuit?
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Post by bokim09 on Sept 9, 2007 0:12:17 GMT
Here in n.e.pa.we just had a home invasion.The homeowner was a retired police officer,he shot it out with the perps,they killed him and I don't think they've got the dirtbags yet.So yes if some ***hole breaks into my house it's not going to be pretty and its not going to be fair and I don't have any real guns.Words of wisdom;The sword cuts' but you strike with your spirit.The red slayer who thinks he slays and the victim who thinks he is slain,neither has wisdom.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2007 8:43:59 GMT
the drug dealers have the run of the inner bits of the small town i live in. police are either corrupt, incompetent, or just dont care. we live on the edge of town in a little cul de sac a qaurter mile off a big highway.... we could get some odd characters quite easily. i collect historical firearms, so my thoughts do not stray to the sword. ive been using handguns since iw as 11, and since thats where all my skill lies, id reach for that over a shinken, bokken, or flamethrower anyday. the simple fact is that when fighting you balance your skill, your situation, and available tools. what i heard earlier in the thread about skill matterming more than weapon is only partially true, a bokken can easily break bones with a proper strike, but most are not capable of that. different strokes for different folks, sometimes literally, sometimes not. /never had to even think of holding a weapon in anger, worst was one night where something kept banging on our back (glass sliding) door and i went to turn on the lights with my gramps old KA BAR in my hand (this was before i owned my own weaponry of course). turns out it was a windstorm an di had left a basketball on the deck
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2007 18:44:00 GMT
Wow. Probably the most interesting Thread I've read.
I once heard a noise coming from my basement in the middle of the night. I had a choice of a pistol, and a bokken. To my surprise, I took with me the bokken to investigate.
Though I love the sword, it is an instrument of death (as are guns) and the bokken (though can kill) is a tool of discipline.
I would not kill, unless it was the only way to defend someone else. That's why I train as hard as I do, do render a potential lethal engagement into just a minor confrontation.
Point in case. I used to be a bouncer. I had a few scraps. After the club would close, is the most dangerous time for bouncers, because if you had thrown someone out, they may be in the parking lot with a gun, or a few more buddies.
What I learned from these fights was to be skilled enough to block everything thrown at you WITHOUT retaliation by striking the opponent. This saved your opponents ego and in return he realized he was outclassed, followed by an apology, and he would leave on his own, and I would not be concerned that he was out in the parking lot with a gun.
Maybe a bit off point, but something to think about.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2007 14:53:09 GMT
There is always the unknown quantity with home invasions, you can never be sure why the person is in your house without your permission. Are they merely stealing your silverware or are they planning to rape you or your children or worse. My opinion is that if someone enters my property without my permission then i can use any amount of force necessary to protect my family. I train every day in techniques to kill a man, why? Because it is better to not need it and have the knowledge than to need it and not have the knowledge. The other reason i train every day is so that when push comes to shove a martial art that is nothing but a sport is not at the forefront of my mind, what is at the forefront of my mind is those moves that will save mine or my loved ones lives. The thing is i know what i am capable of, i know i can smash a man's skull with the right strike, i have the training and the speed and the power. I cannot in good conscience use anything other than a walking stick or a kubotan against because i know what i am capable of with those implements. If i were to use what i know combined with a real sword i would be charged for murder in the first degree or some such due to my training and my knowledge. I do not do martial arts to compete, i do martial arts for centre and so that if push comes to shove i can push real damn hard.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 13:37:42 GMT
bloodwraith-again you are right.I agree with you.It is not the first time you reveal your healthy attitude to things that have connection with weapons and martial arts.And I am 100% serious.After all you are a safety officer here I would use all available force to protect my family-a polleaxe,sword or blackpowder handcannon.Better to be accused of murder than fail to protect and see your beloved being killed or worse...
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