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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 10:23:44 GMT
okay it might sound a little unlikely and strange but lately i was wondering a few things that put my mind to work:P this is all in theory and highly unlikely to happen in your real life But as good as your techniques with a sword (or any other weapon) and as perfect as your cutting technique may be there is a difference in cutting some tatami and a real human beeing so here is the question would your mind be strong enough to slay another human beeing without doubting for a sec (cuz after all a sword is a weapon and the only art a swordsman can practice is to kill) so imagine you have to fight someone who threatens to kill you with his sword and you know only one will walk out alive how strong is your mind
in today's modern kenjutsu and other arts there are some other spiritual tweaks to but if you look at history this is what a sword was ment to do (and i hope no one has to make the choice i just wrote down but it is an interesting point to think about)
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 15:45:14 GMT
When in defense of my life or the life of another I would kill without hesitation. The scenario I have thought of countless times is "what if someone breaks into my home in the middle of the night while my family and i are sleeping? What would i do? I have no choice but to confront the problem. If I don't defend my family at that point, who will? I must do what ever is necessary to keep them and myself safe. I don't mean to sound cold or morbid but if I HAD to choose between them (bad guy) or me living. I choose me.
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Post by rammstein on May 25, 2007 16:43:06 GMT
Hurt? Yes, I could do that if the moment requires it. Maim? Yes, probably providing I had a reason to cripple a person for life. But Kill? I would hesitate. Even if the person was out to kill me, I would still hesitate. Heath, you may feel that way, but I am almost certain that, even if you had resolved to kill your assailant, you would pause a moment and question what you were doing, even if the final verdict in your mind WAS to kill him.
None of us can truly say that we wouldn't hesitate as none of us (or most of us at least...) have never been in this situation.
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Post by ShooterMike on May 25, 2007 18:27:00 GMT
Groundedi, this is a very interesting subject to me. I have been involved in a deadly force confrontation (luckily no one had to be killed) and have done a lot of training related to same. So I know a fair number of people who have taken human life in combat. Most won't really talk about it much, but don't seem to be especially bothered by it. And most were trained in various of the world's military establishments, so their experience probbly doesn't count as much here.
However, one of my training buddies grew up with a devoted martial artist. He progressed through several systems and came to train for a number of years with the katana. He was single and lived alone in an apartment.
Eventually, two miscreants broke into his apartment in the middle of the night. He retrieved his katana and confronted them in the living room, loudly instructing them to vacate the premises immediately. Instead, they both attacked him. Reflexively, he performed a couple of tatami-perfect cuts...rendering said home invaders into multi-part corpses.
However, he had never reconciled in his mind just how much blood and gore is contained in a human body, just waiting to be unleashed with a proper sword cut. He was so overcome and repulsed at the experience that he gave away his sword and completely ceased his association with the martial arts. My buddy said the pschyological damage he suffered made him a completely different person.
Food for thought when considering this subject...
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 19:17:16 GMT
wow shootermike that's one hell of a story reffering to what you've just told i understand that you have spent some time in the frontlines and from my own studies into fighting (martial arts using weapons bare hands and almost any usefull technique and ofcourse the psychological effects you can use) don't know if anyone here is familliar with kwantummechanical physics (for those who don't it's kind of a combination between modern science and spiritual science and they have done experiments that are far beyond what we even hold possible in this MATERIAL world but that another time) they have done research in human emotions and that research led to the conclusion that your emotions can be controlled and supressed even to such levels that one can even make an controlled alter ego with no sense of moral or regret or anything you wanne feel like in such moments it's kinda the same as beeing in love with someone that can change the whole world and trow over all logics so if one would cut off all his emotions the opponent wouldn't have a clear reading of what he's facing and for your own feelings/emotions you could care less what happens i think you could compare it to sas commando training where they kind a build senseless fightin machine's that do what no other person would even consider to do
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Post by tajima on May 26, 2007 8:34:22 GMT
If I was confronted with an intruder in my home I would not hesitate to severe a limb or stab a knife into their body, if they intended to kill me. As I also use a bow, I would remove the risk of being defeated in close-quaters by another knife/sword and let them steal my things and then shoot them in the kneecap or arm with an arrow.
I would not kill someone. It is against my morals. I would, however, go to the lengths of security by destroyed their attack (Cutting off a hand/arm/leg to step them using a weapon and call the police).
Anyway, does anyone know what trouble on can get into by attacking an intruder? Mike?
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Post by rammstein on May 26, 2007 12:41:49 GMT
In america, if he's in your home... He's a dead man I don't know about oz, but I know in scotland, you have to make every attempt to avoid conflct including running away from your home as it is being burglarized. Talk about insane...
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on May 26, 2007 14:33:06 GMT
I'm in Oz and I'd guess it's the same deal as Scotland. I had a mate who had a home invader; mate grabbed a frying pad, belted the guy with it and tied him up for the cops to come and get. He was in all sorts of strife, and prosecuted by the intruder. It's crazy that the intruder is so protected.
I liked when travelling to Indonesia and they have broken glass cemented into the tops of their fence walls. No messing around there.
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Post by rammstein on May 26, 2007 14:42:42 GMT
personal rights should be waived when the person is committing a crime. And in fact, it generally is. Police officers are allowed to rough up bad guys when they flee from the law. The death penalty is administered to criminals despite the "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" part of our laws. What about Jail? Criminals go there frequently even though that stops the "pursuit of happiness" part? Frankly, the criminal has no rights and should not be able to press charges when they are injured doing something illegal. If a man climes a sky scraper and falls off (and somehow lives) you blame his own stupidity. You can't sue the building for not having enough handholds because he wasn't supposed to be climbing in the first place! I'm getting fed up with governments who defend lawbreakers more than law abiding citizens
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Post by ShooterMike on May 26, 2007 15:11:15 GMT
In america, if he's in your home... He's a dead man I don't know about oz, but I know in scotland, you have to make every attempt to avoid conflct including running away from your home as it is being burglarized. Talk about insane... In the interests of clarity, it actually varies quite a bit from state to state in the U.S. What a lot of people may not understand about laws in the U.S. (even those who live here) is that most criminal laws that apply to everyday life are written and enforced at the state level. Most federal laws concerning violent crimes are concerned with "interstate" crime, i.e. a crime that was committed in two or more states where the state laws can't truly be applied. In some of the 50 states, if someone breaks into your home and threatens you with serious bodily harm or death you may use lethal force to defend youself without an obligation to retreat. That is usually referred to as "the Castle Doctrine." However, many states require you to have no avenue of escape before defending yourself. This implies a "duty to retreat" when confronted with an intruder in your home. A very few states provide property owners with a somewhat vaguely defined right to use force, up to and including lethal force, to stop someone from stealing valuable property. Texas has this right. But it is kind of vague and if used, the subject property had better be really valuable. And then there is the bottom line. You will face a Grand Jury of 12 reasonable people for any of these acts. (Of course reasonableness varies by location and time) If you convince them that what you did was reasonable, they will likely not indict you and you will be free to go, in the eyes of the law. However, after criminal proceedings are concluded there is always the possibility of the civil side of the courts system. And there the rules become very vague and anything can happen...
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2007 15:59:05 GMT
Ramm, I was not trying to sound like I'm Rambo or anything. I was trying to avoid saying this but this so you have an idea of where I am coming from. I am a police officer and as part of that job you train physically and mentally all of the time. There have been many studies and events that have shown that you revert back to your training at those critical moments. Now I will agree with you that people do not always follow their training but most of the time they do. Hope this will help you understand where i am coming from.
Just to add a little to what Shooter Mike was saying. Louisiana has a similar law to Texas. It doesn't come out and state that you can "kill" but rather that you have the right to defend yourself if you are likely to receive bodily harm (paraphrasing). Example if someone enters your home while you are there. In all of the places that i have lived in this state it has always been interpreted as defend yourself by whatever means you deem necessary.
However, this deadly force is not justifiable if you look out your window and see someone breaking in to your car. The person is posing a threat to your safety at that moment.
But like Shooter Mike also said there is the possibility of facing the Grand Jury. However, I spoke with a District Attorney once that told me he would not prosecute a case against someone who defended himself in his own home.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2007 19:53:32 GMT
I think, like most people, I would at least try to avoid killing, and just go for the first limb to get within range, but if he's coming fast and I'm already swinging, I wouldn't check the swing. No qualms about blood and guts here.... Home defense-This is why I've picked up sword play, as guns are too regulated, and, really, if a guy is attacking you, with a gun, you need to aim with a small little bullet, and hit him, whereas with a 3' blade, contact is almost a guarantee. Funny, I have called my self a pacifist for years, after a fight that left my opponent twitching on the ground. I thought I killed him, and it made me really think about violence, and its repercussions.
Ever since having kids, though, I find myself able to possess that thought of defending them with that level of violence once again. I do hope, however, that I never need to.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2007 8:10:46 GMT
In Oz if you injure the crim your in deep doo doo. My security trainer told me, use a blunt instrument,get them outside, put them on the road and call the police to a hit and run accident.The crim isnt about to incriminate himself. I have pointed a gun at someone who was armed with a knife, thank god they backed off, its very easy to say you would kill untill your in the situation.I dont have a problem with hurting people but taking life is another thing altogether.
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Post by tajima on May 27, 2007 8:28:09 GMT
I agree, ron.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2007 8:38:49 GMT
If you can't disarm someone with a bokken or shoto (wooden swords), in my opinion, you should not use a steel bladed weapon in defence to an intrusion. Your skill in neutralizing a situation does not lie in the weapon in your hand, but the skill in your hand. My swords are at all times wrapped in their bags at the top, and back of a rather large wardrobe. If someone ever broke in I would always reach for the wooden swords every time. I have no fear or doubt in my ability so as I said would rather, neutralize the situation, than ever want to start losing it and cutting off limbs with a shinken . Besides the trauma on your family seeing all that blood and dismembered limbs , what about the explanations the police/courts will expect. It just makes so much sense that if you fear such things , to improve your training rather than to up your armory .
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Post by tajima on May 27, 2007 8:44:15 GMT
Well, a very wise person once said: "If you have these weapons, and trained, it is a privelige. Using them to harm another would be wrong. In fact, I prefer the exhiliration of unarmed combat..." I can't remember who though...Lol.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2007 8:48:49 GMT
I'm in Oz and I'd guess it's the same deal as Scotland. I had a mate who had a home invader; mate grabbed a frying pad, belted the guy with it and tied him up for the cops to come and get. He was in all sorts of strife, and prosecuted by the intruder. It's crazy that the intruder is so protected. I liked when travelling to Indonesia and they have broken glass cemented into the tops of their fence walls. No messing around there. To hit someone in self defence was not your friends problem brenno, it was probably the tying up bit. You can't use more force than the situation requires by Aus. law. If you are scared for your life(i.e. intruder has entered house with weapon), you can use alot more force than if " he won't stop banging on the door ", for instance. Once you disable their activities, you just push them out your door, and call the Fuzz ( cops). This is why we pay our taxes for !
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2007 11:31:12 GMT
To hit someone in self defence was not your friends problem brenno, it was probably the tying up bit. I am not sure what to think... I have read newspaper reports of people tying up intruders which regarded favourably by the police - but the subsequent beating was not It seems that our legal system is trying to set us up to be victims... The use of equal force is a strong principle in our system but it hardly seems adequate when intruders are of unknown quality and quantity.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2007 12:10:01 GMT
It seems that our legal system is trying to set us up to be victims... yes, best to stay in behind locked doors, trust no-one except the authoritys. They know whats best for you. (please dont slip in that massive pool of sarcasm)
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2007 14:06:19 GMT
indeed there is a very thin line between what's good and wrong some other Wise fellows once said a weapon cannot change the world people who wield them do, and there is this thin line i mean how can you justifie the killing of people how bad or mean this person is every one can go on a boondock saint's rampage and kill every evil person he finds but it doesn't matter how evil a person is they are still human beeings so should we kill hordes so a few may live in a "Better world" if this the case how would you be able to use your sword (other weapon) to your own defence and then if you accidently killed a person you get punished by society cause they say you deserved it, that won't work in my eyes cause the only person that can punish you is yourself cause you have to live with it and if you lose your humanity in this proces by pushing it out of your mind you will have learned nothing and that would be your greatest loss
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