Talon
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Post by Talon on Jul 27, 2011 18:41:22 GMT
i recently went clay pigeon shooting for a works outing and frankly im hooked so i've applied for my shotgun certificate (unlike firearms a shotgun is still relatively easy to get in blighty),but i was wondering what gauge to go for,i love the slim look of a webley 410 over and under,but i believe a 410 is hopeless for clay pigeons,so what are the benefits/drawbacks to 12 and 20 gauge,the recoil of the twelve bore didnt bother me at all,but lots of people seem to like the 20 gauge :?
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Post by GUEST on Jul 27, 2011 19:30:05 GMT
Bigger payload for the 12ga you have a better chance of breaking the clay. Like you said the 20ga has lower recoil for a long day of shooting. Clay piegon aren't my thing so I don't know much. IT seens funny to me hearing someone saying they have to get a certificate to buy a firearm. Are you allowed to take it home or do you have to leave it at the range.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jul 27, 2011 21:58:21 GMT
i had a remmingon 870 n 20 ga and i loved it until i bought my Mossberg 500 in 12 Ga. now the 20 is a dust collector. 12 gauge all the way. i dont sweat the recoil, ill shoot 5 boxes of shells in a session and be just fine. Then again...my mossberg has a pisol grip...so my shoulder never feels a thing! :mrgreen: :twisted: :lol:
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Jul 28, 2011 4:46:59 GMT
thanks for the replies guy's, its looking like it'll be a 12 gauge,fallen the gun laws here are ridiculously harsh :x ,but yeah if you have a shotgun or firearms licence you can keep you're gun at home,
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Post by Onimusha on Jul 28, 2011 9:17:42 GMT
As a former competition trap shooter and current gunsmithing apprentice, I offer my opinion. To a point, the smaller you go in guages (bore) the better the shot pattern will be. It doesn't matter how much shot you have if there are big gaps in the pattern. Trust me, if there is a hole in the pattern, the target will find it. I prefer a 20 guage for my trap and dove shooting. A 28 guage is considered the best, but the shells are hard to find here and expensive when you do. Ammunition prices here are already ridiculous due to the panic buying. A .410 is going to pattern like a rife (the shot is not going to spread much) no matter what you do. The only thing I recommend a .410 for is introducing children to shotguns.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 28, 2011 15:22:39 GMT
Talon, congratulations on being bitten by the "shooting bug." I hope you enjoy it and get to do a lot of shooting. For trap, skeet and sporting clays, a 12 or 20 both work fine. I like them both. As for the patterning argument, I'd just have to say "that depends." It seems to be much more a case of individual shotgun barrels with different types of loads. Almost every modern shotgun will pattern well with some ammo, and poorly with others. It's often a case of finding what load your particular shotgun likes. If 12 gauges didn't pattern well, then almost every pro sporting clays shooter in the world wouldn't use them...but they do. One consideration is the cost and availability of shotgun shells. If 20 gauge was more plentiful where I lived, I'd have a 20 gauge (or 5-6 as the case may be). But as 12 gauge is much more readily available hereabouts, and costs the same or less in some cases, I only own 12 guage shotguns (a dozen+) .
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Post by Onimusha on Jul 28, 2011 15:35:39 GMT
The competition guns of professional trap shooters have had special modifications made to them to improve patterning. I'm not saying that a 12 guage can't pattern well. I'm not even saying that 12 guage factory guns can't pattern well. I'm just saying that, as a rule of thumb, smaller guage factory guns usually pattern better. Of course, even if you had a special competition gun, it still wouldn't pattern well if you shoot winchester super speeds through it. Yes, a 12 guage that patterns well is better for trap than a 20 guage that patterns well. However, if I was buying a factory gun in a place with restrictive gun laws, I'd go for a 20 just because that would give me the best chance of getting something that patterns well. Now, If 20 guage ammunition is hard to come by, by all means, go for what's common. At the end of the day, even a $4000 custom gun is useless without ammunition.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Jul 28, 2011 16:52:53 GMT
great advice guys,well 20 gauge is plentifull over here,and there seems to be a good selection of 20 gauge cartridges :? well i could always buy a 12 and a 20 i've got the gun safe to fit on saturday,and im waiting for a call from the police to come and inspect it and have a chat,but since i've no previous criminal record and no history of depression the licence as far as i can tell is a formality,it usually takes 6 weeks in my county so fingers crossed i may actually start to hit some clay's a dozen plus shotguns mike :mrgreen:
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jul 28, 2011 19:33:19 GMT
my mossberg 12 gauge patterns extremely well thankyou very much :lol: the only mods i did to it was put on a pistol grip rather than the full stock. full stock gets in my way snags on my clothing and faks up my shot. with my pistol grip mossy ill shoot a 95% average any day of the weak, and ive been known to shoot 100% average as well.
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Post by Onimusha on Jul 29, 2011 4:20:07 GMT
sometimes you get lucky like that. With the manufacturing processes we have today, a lot of the gunsmith operations are becoming obselete.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 29, 2011 4:23:05 GMT
Couldn't agree more. My Benellis all pattern very well with their Briley chokes. Good dense, consistent patterns on a pattern board. But put crappy ammo from Walmart in them and see the patterns go to Hell. Good ammo is a huge benefit for clay birding, whatever gun you choose. Personally, I like 20 gauge shotguns. I gave my dad a Beretta 391 in 20 gauge for his birthday, after he had quadruple bypass heart surgery and couldn't shoot his 12 gauge anymore. It's a dream to shoot. Recoil is almost like a .22 rifle, and it seems to break any clay bird that's remotely downrange when you pull the trigger. And does almost as well on doves. Wish I had better access to a local supply of affordable 20 gauge ammo. I might have to add one to my personal collection.
In the end, Talon, you may just want to get whatever "speaks to you" or you can find a good deal on. In the UK, I'm guessing that will be a quality over&under or side-by-side, and will be quite expensive. Personally, I think the way the gun fits you and feels to you is more important than whether it's a 12 or a 20. A shotgun that really fits you well is a true treasure.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Jul 29, 2011 5:26:40 GMT
very true mike,from what i've been reading and with the advice from you guy's i think it will be an over and under 20 gauge most likely a browning or a beretta,im budgeting £600 so hopefully gus will do me a huge favour and not release a 2 handed falchion before i get the gun,otherwise i'll end up with a £50 baikal :roll:
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Post by GUEST on Jul 29, 2011 9:18:49 GMT
Saito still waiting on the video to prove you can shoot clays so well with a pistol grip shotgun.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jul 29, 2011 10:22:41 GMT
ain that the truth. we had 3 fairly local gunsmiths, now we have ZERO. if we need a gun worked o we have to go to a SASS shoot and find one, and he usually only works on single actions and cowboy type guns. im trying to learn to work on some of my guns on my own
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Post by MrAcheson on Jul 30, 2011 15:50:32 GMT
For clays they'll both work. .410 sucks, but 20 and 12 are both nice. 12 is much more flexible though especially if you're ever going to shoot buckshot through it. The pellet size on 20 gauge buckshot peaks at #2, when you really want #1 or higher for any serious game.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 4, 2011 1:31:45 GMT
I'm not a competition clay shooter or a gunsmith or anything but I don't believe that the 12ga. has any great deficiencies that the 20ga doesn't have. Using quality ammunition I've consistently shot 20 or better in 25 bird rounds for clays using either size shotgun. If I'm feeling a bit weak one day I'll use a 20. If I'm feeling fine I'll use a 12. I don't notice much difference in patterning really.
I also bird hunt. I hunt mourning dove, grouse and pheasant. I'd hunt duck and goose but cold weather with water tends to do very bad things to my health so I don't hunt those two types of birds. I decide on my choice of firearm like I do with clays - if I'm feeling a bit weak I go with a 20. If I'm feeling fine that day I go with a 12. Either way I don't have any great difficulty in bringing down game birds that are unfortunate enough to cross my shooting path.
That said I'd have to second what Mike said - go with what is easier to get ammo for. A rifle or shotgun without ammo is just a club after all. In that case I don't think caliber/guage matters lol.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Aug 4, 2011 4:16:57 GMT
thanks for the good advice guys,its really appreciated ,i've decided on 2 guns to start with,a 20 gauge over and under,most likely a browning and a greener martini action 12 gauge,i have a love of falling black single shot rifles,so a falling block shotgun ticks all of my drool boxes,i've got the firearms inspector comming over at 8.30 this morning to have a chat and check my gun and ammo safe,so as long as the interview goes ok it should only take a couple of weeks and i'll be shooting again
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 4, 2011 15:00:10 GMT
Hahaha! So you started off asking which of the two to get then end up getting both! Well that's my problem too - can't just have one or the other. When it comes to firearms I tend to have little or no will power. Its all dependent on my finances. Sadly for me my finances are in shambles currently.
Anyway I'm sure you'll be happy with both shotguns. I've never seen a Martini action shotgun before - heard of them and I've seen a Martini action rifle but a shotgun... that's interesting! If you don't mind post some photos when you get it - I'd love to see it and I'm sure I'm not the only one here.
One thing - I'm sorry that you have to jump through so many hoops in order to purchase a firearm there. Here I can walk into the local sporting goods store, pick out the shotgun/rifle, pay for it and after a short background check (usually takes 10 to 15 min) and I can walk out of there with it. No home checks, chats with local LEO etc. Handguns are a bit different - there's a mandatory 3 day wait for them - sometimes the wait can go as long as 5 days. I've never had to wait more than 3 days then I go back to the store and pick it up. That's just to give someone time to cool off in case they purchased a handgun when they're all mad and set to doing something stupid.
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Post by GUEST on Aug 4, 2011 16:10:40 GMT
In Oklahoma we just have the phone in background check for handguns. At least we're still better off than Calif.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Aug 4, 2011 16:47:32 GMT
a 3 day wait for a handgun i would complain if i was you sam :lol: yeah the firearms laws are ridiculously bad,no centre fire pistols (unless its a long barrelled target pistol) and even then getting one of those is tricky,shotguns are a breeze in comparison,with a firearm in england you have to prove you're worthy of owning one,with a shotgun they have to prove you're not anyway the interview seemed to go ok,we had a chat about the various guns and i showed him how to play the first solo to comfortably numb on guitar heres some pics of the martini 12 gauge,i can pick one up for as little as £80 so its on the shopping listfull pic2.jpg[/attachment]full pic.jpg[/attachment]breech4.jpg[/attachment]breech3.jpg[/attachment]breech2.jpg[/attachment]breech.jpg[/attachment]
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