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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2011 5:48:40 GMT
I did a simple test with my CAS Hanwei Lion dog katana (the famous 1S high alloy steel). I banged the sharp end against a) Hanwei Practical elite katana - basic high carbon steel and b) 150 year old antique tulwar sword (not wootz steel). Guess what, significant edge damage in lion dog katana - 1S steel. The nicks in both the Practical Elite Katana and tulwar sword were almost invisible. So, I guess in a sword-to-sword battle, I'd leave my lion dog katana at home for sure. The picture speaks for itself. I do know that it is crazy to damage my $600 worth brand new katana but I guess I need a real sword - not just a show case piece. Attachments:
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 25, 2011 6:14:14 GMT
Thanks for that. I'd have to agree that you're a little crazy, but that is good for the rest of us who don't have the A.the money and/or B.the cojones to do a test like that.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 25, 2011 6:27:18 GMT
Um...that's a bit more than an extreme test...and I'd actually say that the damage pictured is minimal. I've seen far worse done by far less than another hardened, sharpened piece of steel.
All swords, when struck edge-on-edge with other swords, will suffer damage. The harder and finer the edge in question, the more damage it will take. That looks like a pretty easy fix with a good file or even some fine-grit sandpaper.
I wouldn't classify this as a failure, or "no good" at all. Just...normal.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jun 25, 2011 12:17:54 GMT
As Random stated, that is not out of the ordinary for striking the sword edge on into another piece of hardened steel. Actually it is pretty minimal.
You could do worse than that to it against wood.
damage to edge- unfortunate Hanwei steel junk- not so much
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Post by Crimsoned on Jun 25, 2011 12:26:03 GMT
That looks about the same damage that was produced by a Kris Cutlery vs Munetoshi T10 Take took when I tested the blades edge to edge using very very hard strikes. T10 Take is a bit softer then the 5160 by Kris Cutlery. Both are differentially hardened. The take T10 mostly was cut not nicked.
It's normal damage sword vs sword I'd say. Not really a failure unless it was edge to edge and it literally did minuscule damage to the other swords. You can't fix a nick of that size without reshaping the entire edge. Trust me if you ever cut with that nick and your edge is not in a smooth transition, you will bodge up the cut. Atm my Take T10 cannot cut water bottles with the nicks it has,
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Post by chuckinohio on Jun 25, 2011 12:37:35 GMT
Not a "SIMPLE" test at all as first stated in the OP.
Why would one perform a "DESTRUCTIVE" test on something, and then be surprised that it got destroyed?
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 25, 2011 16:58:16 GMT
I've had nicks worse than that and they never had much impact on what I cut, though granted I never cut much. However, rhett all became irrelevant after two minutes with a fine stone. Reshaping? No, just repairing. Minimal blending and good as new.
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Post by mikejapan on Jun 25, 2011 19:27:29 GMT
Haha Dude what you did was a DESTRUCTIVE test. Like the others said. That's basically minimal damage. It's true, you can do MUCH worse with wood since there are "knots" I'd say it gave exemplary results.
Mikejapan
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Post by Aaron W on Jun 25, 2011 21:23:09 GMT
Just going to underline what Random has already stated for emphasis.
You could do this to nihonto and get edge damage. Remember, swords are not indestructable pieces of steel.
Also, I don't claim to be any kind of expert on JSA in anyway, but if you're bringing this to a sword-on-sword fight, and using the edge to block your enemy's cut, you've got bigger problems than your sword.
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Post by MuerteBlack on Jun 25, 2011 21:44:48 GMT
You think there is any kind of steel out there that would allow a sword to survive edge on edge strikes? Look at any antique nihonto that has seen any action without being repaired, and you will see worse edge damage than your sword - and that damage was probably from ha-on-mune clashes! Despite what you may see in movies, no sharp sword was ever designed to impact another sword with force. If anything, your test impressed me even more with what Hanwei has done with these new swords, because there are few swords that I can think of that would take such little damage from edge-to-edge fighting. A small nick like yours is a small price to pay for such ill-advised actions; your sword can definitely be repaired. Most swords could not say the same after an ordeal such as that. As a matter of perspective, my Kuramono took this chip after simply cutting some impure cardboard that was too abrasive, and the SBG Pro swords have a reputation for being extremely tough swords that are difficult to damage. I have since repaired the damage, and have avoided cutting cardboard anymore. You really do have to be careful with swords. They are weapons of war, but finesse weapons. They have to be used with care.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2011 23:31:28 GMT
Thanks a lot for your comment guys. My point here is that Hanwei's 1S steel is not more than just an ordinary high carbon steel (as in Practical elite katana) - or even bit inferior. James Williams advertises that this is one of the toughest, strongest steels, in the history of swords. But it is not true. It is inferior than the 150 year old antique tulwar sword. That's what I conclude with. Or maybe it is due to improper differential heating just for this piece - as hanwei bulk produces these swords. I can't be sure. Thanks again guys.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 25, 2011 23:53:47 GMT
I think the biggest problem isn't so much whether the steel is good or bad, as simply that this example is very, very thin in the edge. Of course, I'm just going by Hanwei standard edge geometry, with very, very little niku; almost none. Razor-thin edges...well...chip easily. But that's what Hanwei does, since they're geared toward mat cutting and all.
Still, these results are pretty good, considering the above. An antique tulwar, for instance, is probably a much beefier edge than a new Hanwei.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Jun 26, 2011 1:06:24 GMT
We also don't really have a good indication of what the HWS-1 is strength in. Hardness, toughness and resistance to setting are all different physical properties to tweak. If the HWS-1 is what I think it is then it's primary attribute should be it's ability to resist a set in the blade. The edge retention wouldn't necessarily be all that much different from any of their other steels. Not that I know for sure either way.
That too.
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Post by MuerteBlack on Jun 26, 2011 3:35:44 GMT
Just because one sword chips more than another sword in an edge to edge strike does not mean that the steel is worse. There are many, many factors in such collisions besides the steel and even heat treatment. It all depends on the angle of the two swords, the differences in overall blade weight, the differences in edge geometries and the locations on each blade where the impact occurs (which results in different effects due to mass distribution).
Also, remember that even "production swords" are made individually by hand. You cannot judge a line of swords, and certainly the grade of steel used in them, by a single sword. There are going to be small differences in the weight, shape, and heat treatment in each individual sword. Maybe you got one that happened to have a softer edge. Or perhaps a harder, more brittle edge. Some swords break during their first cut because of a microscopic crack that formed during hardening (quenching) that the polisher couldn't see with the naked eye.
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Post by mikejapan on Jun 29, 2011 7:33:56 GMT
MuerteBlack said it all. He's the man with the plan. Like my example. My Odachi is made of 1095 high carbon steel with clay tempering. Still to this day I have NEVER needed to sharpen it and although it has standard production geometry it can still hold an amazing edge. But one day, I was cutting bottles just for fun. I increased speed a little then I hit the wood where a F*****G knot was and guess what.... there was a chip on the cutting edge. But not even 1mm and I was able to sand it and polish it out! Still noticeable but doesn't affect cutting at all. Every sword is different. Like everyone else said.
Mikejapan
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md02geist
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Post by md02geist on Jul 6, 2011 3:43:12 GMT
Edge on edge tests prove very little, except who has the beefier edge geometry. I don't think a sword chipping edge-on-edge is a failure of any type for the blade. When thin sharp metal hits thin sharp metal, something is bound to give.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2011 9:38:07 GMT
I agree that there will be edge damage when swords clash with each other...but what I meant to say here is Hanwei's 1S steel is not any superior. The basic carbon steel is better than 1S alloy steel.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 9, 2011 13:35:26 GMT
I was under the impression that the new steel's claim was not so much that it created a stronger edge, so as to resist chipping on hard targets, rather than providing an enhanced balance between edge hardness and blade resilience, producing an overall better performing sword. The keyword there being overall.
Any edge that is harder had that much more risk of fragility, especially when that hard steel is honed into a fine, flat edge. Concentrating such force as a blade-on-blade strike into the near-microscopic space of two sharp edges is bound to create extreme stress, as has already been covered.
The difference you have uncovered, what I'm trying to get at, is that the HW1S sword you have, simply has a finer, more fragile edge, at the point of collision, than the other sword. Not that HW1S steel is inherently fragile or in no way better than the other steel.
A better test would be cutting a few hundred tatami mats with each sword and comparing edge retention, ease of cut, and whether or not either blade suffers a set or bend in the event of a misaligned cut.
But I'm not about to buy two swords and hundreds of tatami mats, then undergo all the preparations involved with such a test, so I certainly wont suggest anybody else do so.
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Post by MuerteBlack on Jul 10, 2011 23:55:10 GMT
I agree completely here. You should have put both swords through identical test cutting against medium weight targets, periodically testing sharpness, to see which edge lasted the longest. There are many different kinds of stresses to which two given swords can respond, and hitting them together edge to edge is simply not a scientific test at all.
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Post by Crimsoned on Jul 11, 2011 0:34:22 GMT
Except tatami posses almost no risk to swords, and you would literally be cutting hundreds upon hundreds of tatami before your edge needs to be resharpened from what I hear from iaido people. (You could run cardboard cutting instead, MUCH more keener test to edge retention). IF you want tests of steel head over to bladeforums, they have pretty systematic tests you can run.
I think steel on steel is a valid test, afterall NO MATTER how good of a swordsman you were you still had to use your blade to parry. Whether on the mune, or the edge. It is inevitable.
Once again normal damage for edge to edge. Geometries do play a significant role but more then anything you can tell a lot about a steel on the damage given. For example chipping is saying that part of the sword is hard, being cut or bent means it's soft. One can deduce that a sword that is cut on the edge is badly heat treated, like my Munetoshi T10 and is too soft. If it chips it means it may have been properly heat tempered and is hard.
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