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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2011 21:32:54 GMT
Hello everyone,
This is my first post, after encountering the SBG page two years ago and reading about swords on and off since then. My primary interest has been in military sabers, smallswords, and rapiers, and I've been considering a relatively inexpensive saber for my first purchase.
I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the Windlass 1850 Staff and Field model, as I was unable to find any reviews on it. In particular, I'd like to know how it handles (if it's blade heavy like a cavalry saber or not) and whether it suffers the loose hilt issue that plagues the 1840 NCO sword.
Any information on similar infantry sabers, such as the Confederate version (which has different specifications on KOA) or the Union Foot Officer's model would also be welcome. Thanks for you help!
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 21, 2011 3:10:03 GMT
Umm, did someone say "Saber"?
And did someone say, a Windlass saber?
Howdy, first off, and welcome aboard. I'm kind of a Windlass enthusiast, still, and kind of a saber nut. I don't have the SIQ (saber in question) but I've thought about the statistics as posted at KOA, and I've got a rough equivalent in the Windlass American Revolutionary War Saber.
Almost everything about this saber looks good to me. I like the blade length and the angle of the curve. Rarely for Windlass, this one exhibits at least decent distal taper. The killer for me is the grip length. KOA lists it as 3 3/4, which is about what the grip on my Revolutionary War saber was. That was just too tight, for me. My hand felt cramped and somewhat exposed and it was difficult to do transitions between grip styles.
There is a very close equivalent to that saber, however. Well, close enough. It's the Confederate version, the CSA staff and field officer saber. Less distal taper, but an extra inch of grip going by KOA's stats. (If I recall rightly, that's the longest grip on any of the WIndlass sabers.)
Hope this helps.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 21, 2011 10:25:38 GMT
Hey Matt: Welcome to the board. I have the Union Field and Staff Sword. You asked how it compares to a cavalry saber. Officer swords tend to be lighter with less presence (weight bias ) in the blade. Partly because officers get more intelligent, fencible weapons, and partly because officers jobs are to direct not fight. The US 1850 is a copy of the French 1845 Infantry Officer. If you want a cavalry officers sabre then the 1860 cav saber sold by Windlass thru Atlanta Cutlery ( Windlass bought them out after acquiring MRL ) is also an option. If you want a "fighting feel to your weapon, you'll have to sacrifice the finery for a blade  'Course you can also buy one of each like I did :lol: Check prices between MRL and KoA. Think MRL will give you an SBG discount, while KoA usual undersells to get your patronage. 1860 Cavalry Saber  1850 US Field and Staff and 1845 French Infantry Officer  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2011 2:40:30 GMT
Thank you both for your warm welcomes, I'm honored to be in the presence of such illustrious company, having read a great deal of both of your posts and reviews in the past.
Kilted Cossack, I'm happy to meet another saber enthusiast, in this sea of Medieval swords and katanas. You bring up a good point about the grip length, I hadn't noticed how short it is. Do you think it would be a problem for most people, or would it be more of an issue if you have large hands? It seems that the popular Windlass 1860's handle is only 1/4 inch longer. While the Confederate version is no doubt excellent as well, I'm not certain how comfortable I would be with owning a sword with CSA etched so prominently on the blade.
Mr Kelly, I'm almost certain that I've read all of your reviews in the past. Since you own one of the Model 1850's, could you comment on the grip length issue? I'm under the impression that you own the trooper version of the Model 1860 as well, are there significant differences between that and the officer's version? According to KOA, the officer's model is 4 ounces heavier, and has greater distal taper, which do you prefer?
I'm actually considering the 1860 light cavalry saber as well, although I feel like it might be more fun to play with something balanced closer to the hilt (and the 1850 Staff and Field looks great). I presume that neither will fly apart from being used in saber drills.
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Post by LittleJP on Jun 22, 2011 2:46:25 GMT
Hello and welcome,
The 1860 is quite sturdy in regards to sabre drills and the like. However, since the grip is plastic, there may be a gap between it and the tang, leading to something of a wobble, especially after testing it on some harder targets. The blade itself is very sturdy though.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 22, 2011 6:44:14 GMT
For their price point the Windlass is a sturdy enough sword. Their harmonic balance is hit or miss to the original models. Occasionally I've found Windlass swords with better balance than what they copied. More often though they don't get the tapers right.
I've written before that I'm not a big fan of the 1860. They just did a hack job on the 1840 to reduce the weight 6 ozs.
I sold my windlass 1860 enlisted so I can't really comment on the differences with the officer. Primary difference is that the officer sword has a florid hilt and etched blade. With the 1860s you're dealing with a sword under 2.25 lbs so handling and weight bias ( hand or point ) isn't as much an issue.
The length of grip deal goes to technique. A closed handed grip is best for cutting and most compact. The "open" handed grip with the thumb extended and the heel of the hand anchored can require 150% more grip length. This technique is more suited to light cutting from the wrist and point work.
If you want to dry handle and display the officer swords are impressive. If you want to cut use the enlisted styles as less presevation hassle and usually more percussive weight bias.
And if I was cutting, I'd go for the 1840 instead. Better balanced and another 6 ozs of weight.
( Seriously, if you were close enough where you could handle my blades I'd let you play with various "german" styled swords, then let you take a French 1822 in hand: think you'd toss of the germans and keep the french. )
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Post by Larry Jordan on Jun 22, 2011 14:56:02 GMT
I haven't played with the 1840, but I think I'm coming around to your impressions of the 1860. I have the Union model. The handle isn't quite long enough (and the sword too heavy) for open grip work in my not-so-learned opinion. (Not much saber experience). Thanks for pix on the officers swords. Have you seen the new cold steel sabers? 1852 Prussian (33", 34.5oz) 1904 Austrian (34", 34oz) They remind me of officer sabers, but are described as light calvary sabers with similar blade length and weight and come with a reinforced spine. They appear straighter and are slightly heavier than my 1860 (33.5", 30.5oz). |
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Post by MrAcheson on Jun 22, 2011 19:25:41 GMT
It looks like the top is the Staff and Field while the bottom is the French equivalent of the 1850 Foot Officer's Sword, not the 1850 Staff and Field. Were both 1850s copied from the same sword?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 22, 2011 22:43:57 GMT
It looks like the top is the Staff and Field while the bottom is the French equivalent of the 1850 Foot Officer's Sword, not the 1850 Staff and Field. Were both 1850s copied from the same sword?
Both American swords were prototyped from the same French 1845. The US Staff and Field was modified to accomodate two rows of script rather than the less elaborate single line for line swords.
Have you seen the new cold steel sabers?
Hi Larry: I have both of these on pre order. The Austrian is in fact the enlisted version of this saber. Somewhere in the beginners section someone asked for a sword ID for which he has both the rank and file M1904s.
Typical Lynn Thompson his M1852 isn't correctly stated. The '52s were downsized in 1876. So the Cold Steel is a type 2 version. My posted article on mid 19th Century Sabers shows a full sized M52 with 1.25 in blade. I was hoping to have these already but KoA tells me that CS always is slow in putting out new items.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 23:37:39 GMT
You guys have posted so much useful information, thanks again. And I really appreciate the offer to allow me to handle your swords, Mr Kelly, such kindness to a veritable stranger. Unfortunately I'm on west coast, so I won't be able to take you up on your offer. I'm sure the French 1822 is simply lovely.
I'll definitely have to give this much more thought, especially considering the grip issue. There do not appear to be very many reviewed choices for infantry sabers, with the Confederate Field Officer's saber reviewed on MyArmoury (please let me know if it's in bad form to mention other forums) being discontinued, and the British 1897 and 1803 models having unfavorable reviews (incidentally by Dave Kelly himself). Perhaps I should put more consideration into a cavalry saber, but I fear that they might be too unwieldy on foot, and that the blade weight might be too much of a shock to someone who once fenced foil.
Perhaps I should be more clear on my intentions with this sword. I don't really plan on sharpening it and doing any cutting, for fear of cleaving off my leg, although it would be nice to know that it could be used if zombies showed up demanding satisfaction. I'm just looking for something that would handle well, look great, and offer a glimpse into one of my favorite types of swords.
Are brass-hilted swords considerably more difficult to care for than their steel-hilted counterparts?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 24, 2011 4:24:15 GMT
Rather easy to offer someone a boon that is unfufilable... As far as what to buy, I'd tell you to just go with your gut and if the price point is something you can live with just get it unless someone here is shooting red star clusters. Swords under $250 USUALLY have some design compromises that won't match original production pieces; although, as I said, sometimes it actually works in reverse and the replica is actually better. If you have had any fencing training of some duration I really wouldn't worry about being disciplined with an edged weapon as the fundamentals are the same for all of them. Weight and length of blade is a matter of stature then preference. If you are tall enough for a blade then for anything up to 2.5 lbs you can readily train up to stamina to use the sword. I got the impression that you considered doing some light cutting. If you're not, then it really doesn't matter much what you get as you can work around most issues where you're not going to apply the edge. Field and staff swords are light by nature, so even if the hilt isn't optimal for full hand control you aren't going to get overpowered by it in application. You're training is foil, then your movements will be direct and small rather than saber slashing. As to the differences in brass and steel hilt maintenence, I've found brass to be by far the easier to clean and return to brilliance. A little cleaner and a microfiber cloth and brass will return to you a near original luster. Stained and patinated steel won't. Cheap brass oxidizes pretty quickly so you may find yourself polishing a bit more often for appearences sake; but it is easy enough to do. ( Unless you're like that idiot Kelly who'se got 40 brass hilted babies to attend  ) |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 17:38:19 GMT
Thanks again for being such a fountain of good advice, I've learned more from these posts than I have from hours of searching on the internet. I had more or less decided on the Model 1850, only to discover that it's back ordered on KOA, and that it would cost $10 more after shipping from MRL. So perhaps I'll wait for a while for the to restock.
Just for my own edification, which swords have you found to handle better than the originals? The only one I recall you saying that about is the 1860 saber, which you ultimately didn't like the handling of regardless. I recall that you've mentioned the 1840 and the Hadik hussar saber to be quite good as well in that respect, but not surpassing the original.
For that matter, perhaps I've simply missed this, but is there a discernible hierarchy in quality for saber reproductions? With other types of swords there seems to be a logical progression, for instance with rapiers there's Hanwei, Darkwood Armory, and Arms & Armor. With sabers, on the other hand, I've only noticed Windlass and Weaponedge/Military Heritage/Stromlo, and even then, it doesn't seem well established that the latter surpasses the former. Is there simply no market, or am I missing something?
Finally, is there a guide somewhere regarding care for brass components (what to use to polish, how often, etc.)? I've read the article on the SBG site about regularly oiling the blade, but I have no experience with these things. Does brass require regular polishing to keep from tarnishing, and does this mean you spend hours every day keeping that incredible collection of yours pristine?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 27, 2011 21:08:42 GMT
Just for my own edification, which swords have you found to handle better than the originals? That was a pretty broad generalization that spans the full time spectrum of swordcraft. For example, many roman gladii produced now probably outclass the usual line gladius given a legionaire. There really isn't a very active general market for replica modern era swords. Weaponedge was probably the most prolific and diverse manufacturer, but the demise of their founder in the spring of 2009 has seen their business stumble pretty badly. The failure of Stromloswords and the inexplicable character of Military Heritage has left a void in North American sales. KoA was prepared to accept WE, but WE wanted up front payment without any guarantees for delivery, of which they have had a laggard history. I have two french and one German source for WE, but their wholesale rates, VAT and freight costs are chilling. Armae, Empire Costume and www.medieval-arms.co.uk/?basket_id=11114 ( The UK business address is actually for a Hamburg GE retailer. )Cold Steel has some good swords. Where they got them from they don't say. Some are Windlass productions. Chevalier D'Auvergne is a resource for French reproduction weapons. |
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'Course you can also buy one of each like I did :lol: 
