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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2008 17:08:58 GMT
I had one knifemaker assure me that, even if a blade is forged, it has to be ground. How did they do this back in the day? I'm pretty sure Ulfbert didn't have a belt grinder.
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slav
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Post by slav on Apr 1, 2008 17:41:04 GMT
Hand tools such as files, scrapers, and drawknives.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Apr 1, 2008 21:17:33 GMT
The Japanese use a special drawknife called a Sen to scrape excess steel off the blade they are working.
Incidentally, could anybody tell me how these tools are made?
My guess is that the Japanese would make them from Kataha bars (which are laminated bars with one steel layer, and one iron layer), with a chisel type bevel, and the steel lamination as the edge. I would guess that the steel would be full-hard (hardened and untempered), and supported by the iron.
Just an idea. Is this near the mark?
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slav
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Post by slav on Apr 1, 2008 21:20:16 GMT
Nowadays I have seen guys just mill or forge really high carbon bar (1095) and single-bevel it, and then it is fully hardened and untempered, yes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2008 22:35:51 GMT
They still need to be tempered like anything else, even if it is just a touch. Take an old file, grind a 45 degree (roughly no need to get anal) chisel edge on it, keep it cool while grinding and it will work great if you keep the original heat treat. Rough grind some tangs on either end and add some handles.
To the OP, You would be surprised just what advaced tooling the ancient smiths had, equivalent to most modern tools. And YES, no matter how close you forge a blade down there has to be some kind of stock removal. Old smiths had water powered stone grinding wheels, as well as loose powdered abrasives of all different grit that were bonded to leather wrapped wheels.
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Post by Dan Davis on Apr 2, 2008 3:41:37 GMT
The Japanese use a special drawknife called a Sen to scrape excess steel off the blade they are working. Incidentally, could anybody tell me how these tools are made? I use a section of broken katana blade that failed heat treat mounted on a steel carrier. So does Yoshihara-san. Any old hardened edge will do.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 18:49:34 GMT
I understand belt grinders are rather expensive. Are there any other modern tools that'll do the job - if not as efficiently as least a bit more economically?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 3, 2008 0:14:37 GMT
I only use an angle grinder (say $40 for a decent one) and a hand held belt sander in a vice (ditto the price). Not exactly a state of the art workshop.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2008 1:53:57 GMT
scale of 1-10 how important is a belt sander?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 3, 2008 10:34:36 GMT
Depends how you define necessary - but for a well finished blade its a 10. If you want something that will save your life in a skirmish - 0.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2008 18:24:23 GMT
I only use an angle grinder (say $40 for a decent one) and a hand held belt sander in a vice (ditto the price). *nods* I was thinking along those lines. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2008 23:26:00 GMT
Belt grinder is definately a NEED. Once you have one and have used it, you will wonder how the heck you did ANYTHING with that angle grinder and belt sander lol. When I say belt grinder I even mean a smaller one, but a big one will make THOSE even seem confusing as to how you even were able to use it to make blades hehe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 5:42:26 GMT
c mon now i just went out and bought a belt sander! well now im attempting polishing.....what grits do u guys use???
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 4, 2008 6:50:27 GMT
That depends where you're starting from, and how you are polishing? Can you be more specific?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 15:52:46 GMT
well just to see what would happen i tried to put a finish on a stainless steel knife. startetd using the 80 grit belt that came with it and i hand sanded it up to 320 (highest grit i currently have). im started to get a little reflection!
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 4, 2008 17:16:07 GMT
Once you get to 600 you'll get some reflection, but then go 800 > 1200 > then metal polish paste - then you'll have your reflection.
The belt sander is great for stock removal. I use the 40 and 80 for shaping wood and steel. the 40 can move some material. I use the 120 for smoothing a blade that I have carved out with the angle grinder. Then I use disks on a rubber backing which mounts into my drill to remove the marks made by the belt sander. These are the orange disks seen in the photo above.
I'll use a 240 disk to remove the marks - which takes some time. then I'll use 400 disks to remove those marks. Fatecaller gets 600 disks which would be great - but here I cant get anything finer than 400 for the life of me. So I epoxy 800 grit onto used 400 disks. Then go by hand.
You should be able to buy the rubber backing pad to mount into the drill for about $10. A pack of 5 sheets for it is about $4.50.
Does that help?
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Post by brotherbanzai on Apr 5, 2008 13:48:40 GMT
Hey Brenno you have almost the exact same setup as me! Keeping my eye out for a used belt grinder, I saw a kit to build one but still too pricey for me.
Dark, I machine grind up down to 320 then hand sand again with 320 to take out the swirl then hand with 400, 600, 1200, and end with 2000. Or down to 600 then run it lightly across a buffing wheel. Going to try hand sanding down to 3000 as per Dan Davis' suggestion.
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