my quest for a SABER

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caferacer
Member

Posts: 375

my quest for a SABER May 15, 2011 3:11:12 GMT

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Post by caferacer on May 15, 2011 3:11:12 GMT

I have been wanting to add a saber to my collection for a bit, .......for as long as I can remember really,.........so I have been looking at the offerings from windless, and cold steel, among others hoping to find something I like, cheap, (I like cheap) used, closeout, scratch and dent, with no luck, but hey it's fun to look right? when what do I find in a flea market knife stall?.............amongst the stainless steel wall hangers and rambo knives? ...........when the owner says "I got some used swords and an old one" ......the saber I have been looking for!......in my price range!........you know.....CHEAP!.......windless cheap, and it's not made in india, says "London made" right on the edge of the blade, rather beat up but it came with the scabbard and frog, so now I am excited, not sure what I bought but I like it, SO IT IS COOL!, time to do some research (I figure having something to research was worth the price of admission anyway)
Where to start?,.......the blade is marked " Morris Angel & son shaftesburry avenue London w.c."......O.K. lets see what google has to say ... WHAT THE %$#^! www.angels.uk.com/history.html a movie prop! BUMMER!!! oh well guess I will try and find out what movie or TV show it was used in, perhaps Errol Flynn used it!!! it appears that morris angel & son have had a few sales in recent years selling off some old stock and military surplus, hmm military surplus? ............cheaper to buy surplus than to make reproductions, ........interesting.......but what do I have, or what is it a copy of? .....time to look at the blade again for more clues, .let see what it says here,....."Royal Artillery" O.K. google me a royal artillery saber,...............(slow computer)...................BINGO what have we here? pattern 1822 royal artillery dress saber, but why is it marked "morris angel & son"? more research needed, according to the Morris Angel & son web site they were involved with the ENSA, or Entertainments National Service Association, founded in 1939, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entertainm ... ssociation sort of the British equivalent of the U.S.O. supplying them uniforms, as well as dress uniforms to the free French Army, so my sword was made sometime during WWII still cool, further inspection of the blade reveals the Royal seal for King George V, ...that's not correct? I must have misread it that should say King George VI, ...let me get my magnifying glass,.... nope no mistake King George V,...who ruled from 1910 to 1936, only the ENSA wasn't founded until 1939??? ..now the plot thickens,

stay tune for our next exciting chapter "A blade to remember" or "dude where's my sword?"

Now I am confused (some would say I am usually confused, but I digress) if the sword was made during the Rule of George the V, and the ENSA wasn't formed until three years later why is it marked " Morris Angel & son? it is still not adding up, more research on pattern 1822 Royal artillery dress swords is in order, the next breakthrough came from a thread at SFI aptly titled "1822 Pattern Royal Artillery Sword..makers mark question " www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... k-question THATS MY SWORD!!! so not made in London just a marketing ploy for an imported common trade sword, possibly from Solingen, (who still manufacture it today www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/artillery.html )with the Morris Angel & son" added later, so there you have it, I am hoping some of our more knowledgeable members can add to this story with any details that have been left out (and I am sure there are many) but in conclusion I am quite pleased with my new addition, much more than I would have been with a new saber from depeeka, windless, or cold steel, although I am sure I will be adding some from then in the future,

and now without further ado here are the pictures
stats are length 40 1/4" grip:5 1/8" blade 34" P.O.B. 5 1/4" from guard, weight 2 lbs 4oz

Last Edit: May 16, 2011 3:20:29 GMT by Deleted

mostly harmless

Kilted Cossack Member Posts: 1,113	my quest for a SABER May 15, 2011 3:30:53 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by Kilted Cossack on May 15, 2011 3:30:53 GMT Dude, that is the awesome sauce right there. That is a very, very nice saber.
	Homo homini lupus est.

Dave Kelly
Senior Forumite

Posts: 3,628

my quest for a SABER May 15, 2011 12:23:45 GMT

Quote

Post by Dave Kelly on May 15, 2011 12:23:45 GMT

REALLY do wish you had the ability to post clearer pictures.

You do the best you can with what ya got, of course. Just that it's hard to offer anything to you about the sword when I can't see the marks or the true condition of the blade, etc.

Most likely WWI surplus snapped up by Angels for production rentals. Officers stock wouldn't necessarily have a lot of government proofs all over them. Easy enough to post mark these.

Didn't share what you paid for it. It's a nice piece for a personal collection.

Introduc harioli. Praeterea oportet esse harioli. Et quidam etiam arbustis.

( Bring in the clowns. There ought to be clowns. And some Shrubbery too. )

caferacer
Member

Posts: 375

my quest for a SABER May 15, 2011 14:16:57 GMT

Quote

Post by caferacer on May 15, 2011 14:16:57 GMT

Thanks for your input Dave Kelly, I will try and get some better pics, it is identical to the sword in the SFI thread including the "proved+" mark, with the only difference being mine has "morris angel & son" on it, where the one in the SFI thread is blank, the guard and grip appear to be complete with only a loose wire wrap near the pommel, the engraving does not appear to be very well done (the sign of a munitions grade piece?) although the temper is well done as the blade will return to true when flexed, unfortunately there is a fair amount of discoloration on the blade with some pitting near the tip, the scabbard is intact except near the tip where the leather has become frayed and torn with a small amount missing (approx 1" to 2") and the tip has come off (although I have that) the wood core is still intact though, the wear appears to be consistent with it being used a a child's toy or Halloween costume, all in all I don't think I got ripped off to badly at $150

mostly harmless

Dave Kelly
Senior Forumite

Posts: 3,628

my quest for a SABER May 15, 2011 16:33:03 GMT

Quote

Post by Dave Kelly on May 15, 2011 16:33:03 GMT

$150.00 isn't bad. Lesson learned is that had you known it was a prop sword and the scabbard was ripped in a few points you could have bargained down a bit more.

I bought a Brit M1827 for what I thought was a bargain. But when it arrived I found out that it was a presentation sword, munitions grade, for a Lodge leader of the Loyal Orangemens League, ( Loyalist counterpart to the Irish Republican Army :lol: )

Price of admission to the wonderful world of collecting. When you leave the known path the woods are full of Lions, Tigers, Snakes and Rats... :twisted:

Introduc harioli. Praeterea oportet esse harioli. Et quidam etiam arbustis.

( Bring in the clowns. There ought to be clowns. And some Shrubbery too. )

caferacer
Member

Posts: 375

my quest for a SABER May 15, 2011 21:39:38 GMT

Quote

Post by caferacer on May 15, 2011 21:39:38 GMT

I would define a "prop" as something manufactured to resemble the real thing, this appears to be the real McCoy, not a reproduction, weather or not it was ever issued or carried by an officer of the ENSA or Free French army, or kept in storage and used as a movie prop, is less interesting to me than, who made it and when,

so far my research (which consists of several hours searching on the web, so it is by no means complete) appears to indicate these swords were mass produced, and supplied to retail establishments, who would have their mark put on them, and sell them to officers who were required to purchase uniforms at there own expense, this one being representational of the lower end offerings, Wilkinson and Tiffany being on the higher end, with others in between,

after looking it over and asking what they wanted for it I made what I considered a reasonable offer, which they eventually accepted, I based my offer on what I would be willing to pay for a modern made in india reproduction sword,(boring) and I got something that I find infinitely more interesting,

the "price of admission" refers to my belief that the knowledge I gain by researching this sword will be more valuable to me than the price I paid for it

mostly harmless

Dave Kelly
Senior Forumite

Posts: 3,628

my quest for a SABER May 16, 2011 1:24:57 GMT

Quote

Post by Dave Kelly on May 16, 2011 1:24:57 GMT

One of the antiques dealers I've done business with told me a tale about his being afforded an opportunity to buy up swords that were used in the Sharpes BBC series.

The 1796 swords offered were belived to be stage props by the production people. My dealer says he was stunned to find out they were all ORIGINALS. Claimed the swords for pennies on the pound and turned round and sold them off for thousands.

Finding an Angels and Son purchase order for the swords would be useful...

Introduc harioli. Praeterea oportet esse harioli. Et quidam etiam arbustis.

( Bring in the clowns. There ought to be clowns. And some Shrubbery too. )

caferacer
Member

Posts: 375

my quest for a SABER May 16, 2011 23:55:46 GMT

Quote

Post by caferacer on May 16, 2011 23:55:46 GMT

a purchase order would be very useful indeed! a bit of a needle in a haystack though

I do have a question or two, as this is not a rare or valuable piece, do you think their would be any harm in trying to fix the scabbard, either by patching or replacing the leather tip? and what about the sword itself, any harm in cleaning the blade and guard? or repairing the wire wrap on the grip?

last but not least, thanks for all your help, it has been an invaluable resource

mostly harmless

Dave Kelly
Senior Forumite

Posts: 3,628

my quest for a SABER May 17, 2011 0:20:30 GMT

Quote

Post by Dave Kelly on May 17, 2011 0:20:30 GMT

I would think that a "trade" grade WWI surplus item with no provenece won't be hurt by some judicious police up. I'd work within the limits of your means, being conservative. This is better than a salvage sword in its current state, so experimenting with a polisher or grinder i'd discourage if you're not a pro.

Any car leather product will work on the scabbard. The fishskin on the grip prefers beeswax, or that mixed with olive oil.
(Darkwood Armory sells this product.)

Once you've cleaned your steel there are a number of options for maintaining u can find here. Automotive silicon has become popular and is dirt cheap.

g'luck

Introduc harioli. Praeterea oportet esse harioli. Et quidam etiam arbustis.

( Bring in the clowns. There ought to be clowns. And some Shrubbery too. )

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mrstabby: Hello, welcome even under these sad circumstances. Maybe put out a thread in the Renaissance/Military subsection. Nov 28, 2024 6:52:12 GMT *

trooperwill: I have just been appointed conservator and Guardian for Dave Kelly and have no experience or knowledge of swords. I would appreciate any assistance that folks who know Dave or have visited with him and seen his collection could give me. need appraisal Nov 28, 2024 0:05:16 GMT

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my quest for a SABER

Post by caferacer on May 15, 2011 3:11:12 GMT

Post by Kilted Cossack on May 15, 2011 3:30:53 GMT

Post by Dave Kelly on May 15, 2011 12:23:45 GMT

Post by caferacer on May 15, 2011 14:16:57 GMT

Post by Dave Kelly on May 15, 2011 16:33:03 GMT

Post by caferacer on May 15, 2011 21:39:38 GMT

Post by Dave Kelly on May 16, 2011 1:24:57 GMT

Post by caferacer on May 16, 2011 23:55:46 GMT

Post by Dave Kelly on May 17, 2011 0:20:30 GMT

Shoutbox