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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 21:54:15 GMT
hey i dont have the money to buy steel and stuff so i use the blades of kitchen knives for projects ;D. so anywho i was trying to get one out of the handle when the tang just snapped right off so my question would be is there a way to like make the blade less hard so it wouldnt snap like that. also how would i temper them further....i heard i could just put em in the oven would that work? im trying to get them to be a little more springy. oh and i dont know if this helps but on the knife it says molybdenum vanadium steel...what ever that is.
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 20, 2008 22:44:49 GMT
Many kitchen knives are make of specialized Stainless-steels that work differently than the traditional Carbon Steels used for most swords. In fact, lots of kitchen knives gain their temper from heating and then deep-freezing at the factory....stuff like that. So basically, you're likely not going to be able to learn any heat treating/bladesmithing skills from messing with kitchen knives...or any knife that is already heat-treated really. www.admiralsteel.com/shop/ has all kinds of high-carbon steel bar stock that you can buy very cheaply. I usually buy a 6-foot length of 1095 and it costs me about $25 shipped. All of these, I basically made from a single $15 bar of steel from Admiral: You should be able to find a 3 to 5-foot bar of your choice of 10xx HC steel for less than $10 from Admiral. Don't tell me you can't afford that...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 23:29:58 GMT
ok i wont lol ill take a look but it might be smart to get a real forge first
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Mar 20, 2008 23:30:07 GMT
If you want to soften steel you have to anneal it. Tempering is a different form of heat treatment. Putting it in the oven will not work. To anneal, heat to critical (non magnetic), then bury the blade in a bucket of ashes, so that it cools very slowly (over 24 hours, preferably). The longer you cool for, the softer it gets. Of course, if your only problem is how to get the handle off a blade, then try finding out how it attaches first! Kitchen knives made from stainless are likely of the air hardening variety. 440C, 145CM or other (probably cheaper) stainless steels. These steels may benefit from a sub zero quench, but are not exactly "deep frozen" as Slav puts. This branch of steel is really confusing. It is likely that he is referring to a sub zero quench, which is not as simple as a simple "freeze" but may be construed that way. FYI. When the blade says "molybdenum vanadium steel" it is referring to the type of alloy steel it is. When alloyed with steel, molybdenum increases "hardness penetration" and increases the toughness of the steel. It also adds the characteristic of "red hardness" to the steel, which means that the steel will not soften at high temperatures. This makes alloy steel with large amounts of molybdenum hard to forge. Vanadium retards grain growth, helping to control grain growth when heat treating. Alloy steels are very complicated. Hope that helps.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 0:13:03 GMT
alot thx!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 0:33:08 GMT
Question here: How do you create high temperatures with just using coals? Will an electric fan work?
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 0:57:46 GMT
Question here: How do you create high temperatures with just using coals? Will an electric fan work? Yep. Works like a dream! Oh and darkslyde, you don't need a forge in order to make knives. Stock-removal is a perfectly legitimate method, and to do the heat-treat all you need is a hot enough fire (which can be achieved using Charcoal briquettes and an electric fan if need be.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 1:02:24 GMT
so about the steel i looked at it and it looks good but which do u recomend? i guess i can use stock removal which would be the best for that?
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 1:11:02 GMT
1095 is my favorite. I have been using it since my first blade.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 1:13:50 GMT
there are 2 types HR and CRA also if i wanted to make a tanto shaped blade what would be the best size for that? also i do not have a drill press so how would i put the holes in it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 1:27:46 GMT
HR is hot rolled and will still have the mill scale on it, easily ground off. CRA is cold rolled annealed, a bit smoother, you'll still be grinding on it so either one will work great.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 1:46:14 GMT
so back to how will i drill the mekugi holes? also what is a good tang to blade ratio for a tanto (already started planning it ;D)
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 2:14:02 GMT
Well you're gonna have to get ahold of a drill to do the holes. And the design/dimensions of the blade are entirely up to you! Whatever you think looks/feels the best...do it!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 3:25:59 GMT
so once i finish does this steel need to be tempered in anyway?
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 4:41:56 GMT
Yes, it would need to be heat-treated. Heat treating is a process that involves normalizing the blade, heating it, quenching it, and then tempering it. For more information, check out this website: www.engnath.com/public/manframe.htmhere you will find everything you need to know about beginning bladesmithing. There is a column on the left listing a variety of topics (including "heattreat").
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 21, 2008 7:11:52 GMT
Good link Slavers, +1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 9:24:03 GMT
Nice link slav. I don't know whether it has or has not but it doesn't show the process of annealing which i'm looking for. Could anyone give me tips on annealing? All i know is that it turns the metal non magnetic. I don't know about colour and such. Help? Please?
One more: Is it normal for oxidation to occur on the surface of the blade when normalizing?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 21, 2008 11:11:05 GMT
Nice link slav. I don't know whether it has or has not but it doesn't show the process of annealing which i'm looking for. Could anyone give me tips on annealing? All i know is that it turns the metal non magnetic. I don't know about colour and such. Help? Please? One more: Is it normal for oxidation to occur on the surface of the blade when normalizing? Oh my god dude, you've got to read all these posts more carefully, look through the forum, and read carefully. This is such a repetition of whats been said: How to anneal - Matt has answered this very clearly on page 1 of this thread. *Annealing - Is the process of making hardened steel soft again. *Normalising - The process of getting a regular & denser crystaline structure throughout the blade. *Your steel will always be magnetic at room temperature. It's only non magnetic at 1450F or above. *Whenever you heat treat metal it will go black and spotty and get a scale all over it. I like that finish - or you can polish it off. To anneal - heat treat to critical / non magnetic / 1500F / red-orange <- ALL THE SAME THING. Bury your steel in hot ashes so that it cools as slowly as possible (24 hrs) - that will make it softer again. To Normalise - Heat to critical throughout the blade > then let it cool back to air temperature in air (say over 10 minutes) Anything else?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 11:45:19 GMT
Have a karma for having put through with me...
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 21, 2008 11:47:51 GMT
Happy to help.
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