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Post by thana357 on Apr 30, 2011 11:41:42 GMT
Anyone out there own one ? and Why not ? the reason I ask 'cause I never see this rifle /carbine at the range at all and it seem that only me and about 2 more people with in 100 mile radius own one .
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Post by Larry Jordan on Apr 30, 2011 15:29:16 GMT
Is this the rifle? There are a couple reasons why this rifle is not popular: 1) This carbine model was used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. 2) The rifle sucks. It's accurate enough, but the action is rough and sloppy. The cartridge is excellent for what is was intended for: penetration in urban warfare. The 160gr 6.5mm FMJ round nose moving at 2000fps has incredible penetration thanks to the projectile's sectional density and slower velocity. Howard Donahue has documented in the book Mortal Error its penetrating ability: He was able to penetrate 47" of pine with standard military ammo. I've chosen instead rifles chambered in 6.5x55mm (Swedish Mausers) or modern rifles in 260Rem.
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Post by MrAcheson on May 5, 2011 18:42:04 GMT
A lot of them were screwed up when they were sporterized as well. Some carcanos had progressive rifling where the twist rate changed down the length of the barrel. When the guns were sporterized, the barrels were shortened to make the rifles handier. This removed the steepest section of the rifling and meant that they had trouble creating enough spin to stabilize the long skinny 6.5 bullets.
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Post by thana357 on May 6, 2011 19:15:01 GMT
The JFK assassination thing kind of get me interest into this rifle because LHO supposed to get off 3 shot in 5 second and making a hit on moving target -moving away from him at 75 yards . I could not even get the second shot off 'cause my clip latch and follow got stuck and need some encouragement from rod poking from the bottom . The one I have is cavalry version with build in bayonet and it seem to shot alright once I get the third round to feed
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Post by MrAcheson on May 7, 2011 2:33:57 GMT
Keep in mind that one of the reasons LHO was able to shoot so fast is that he's a lefty. He rested the gun on the window frame, then worked the trigger with his left and the bolt with his right. Also Kennedy's car was largely moving away from Oswald not across his position, especially for the final shot.
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Post by birdman on May 7, 2011 19:41:19 GMT
My main objection to them is the Mannlicher type clips. I really don't care much for guns that require special, uncommon types of clips to make it function as a repeater, or that use rare ammo that's expensive and hard to obtain (my one exception is my Mauser C96 pistol - but I can make cases out of .223 brass if necessary). Back when I was in high school, a friend of mine bought one in a hardware store for $35 or so, to use as a white-tail hunting rifle. He had to use it as a single-shot for lack of clips, and Norma ammo cost him more than the gun!
That being said, some were fitted with Mauser-type magazines and shipped to the Japanese during the war. I wouldn't mind having one of those, now...
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Post by Larry Jordan on May 9, 2011 13:22:18 GMT
Just a few clarifications:
1. According to the Warren Commission the elapsed time between 1st and 3rd shots was 5.6 seconds. 2. Howard Donahue in a CBS Reenactment was able to better Oswald's time making 3 hits (3" group at a 50 yard moving target) in 4.8 seconds 3. Both Donahue and Oswald are/were right handed 4. The target was moving a away from the shooter, thus it would have been perceived as being "stationary"
If the shooter can operate the bolt without having to unmount the rifle he can minimize the split times. Donahue averaged 2.8 seconds per split. In the reenactment performed by 11 shooters, three were able to better or equal 5.6 seconds: three were employees of the H. P. Laboratory (which conducted the test), three were Maryland State police officers, a weapons engineer (Donahue), a ballistics expert, two sportsmen, and an ex-paratrooper fresh from 'Nam. None had previous experience with the M-C, but were allowed to acquaint themselves with a few test firing sessions. ("Mortal Error", p. 7-8).
The Warren Commission based their times on the Zapruder film (super 8). But the CBS investigation concluded that the film was probably running slower than what the WC believed and consquently Oswald had more time.
Correction: The muzzle velocity of the M-C round is approx 2230 fps, 10% faster than the figure I stated earlier.
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Post by MrAcheson on May 10, 2011 17:14:32 GMT
Did some more research. You're correct that he's right handed, but he was also left-eye dominant and supposedly trained to shoot lefty.
The issue with the times splits is that all the timings are different depending on the source. All the recorded audio has tons of echoes because of acoustic reflections off of all the hard building surfaces. You can try to use the Zapruder film, but it was shot with a spring-driven camera so you really don't know how accurate the timing is. I think the other video recordings have similar problems.
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Post by Larry Jordan on May 11, 2011 0:20:31 GMT
I am right handed and right eye dominant. I have no trouble shooting (semi-autos) with the left-eye in spite of dominance. I do have trouble operating the bolt with the left hand. I don't put much credence in the eye-dominance theories for rifles. Young children are tested for eye dominance WHEN LEARNING TO SHOOT ARCHERY. I've discussed this with the JOAD folks. But how is one to really know the implications of cross dominance?! Some may have real issues. Some may not.
I have an archive restoration of the Zapruder film. I didn't see any speedup/slowdown issues which would lead me to believe that I could not trust the relative split times one might deduce. The number of frames per second is another matter. (If one studies the Zapruder film, as Donahue has done, there is a interesting difference in the spit times. And this difference leads him to his two-shooter theory in "Mortal Error": one intentional (Oswald), the other accidental. The book is a good read, if you can find a copy. It appeals to shooters because it is written by shooter.)
Sound recordings of the Dealey Plaza proved impossible for anything--timing or location. It was a massive echo chamber.
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Post by thana357 on Jul 9, 2011 20:24:16 GMT
If LHO use different type of rifle most people would be convinced that he could have act alone .I have read that he paid $12 (shipping include ) for the carbine complete with cheap scope through the mail and he practice with it a lot and he was an ex-marine so it was all possible . I still could not duplicate that 'cause my follower still got stuck after extensive parts change and rebuild .The gunsmith repair bill might exceed to cost of the carbine itself so I have to discuss that with him first . In all it is very fun and interesting carbine to enjoy at the range once in a while .
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