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Post by joeydac on Apr 27, 2011 18:14:18 GMT
So I just received my windlass falcata that was the deal of the day on there site over the weekend So I wanted to give it a short review Overall Length: 25 1/4 In Blade: 20 1/8 In Weight: 2 lb 14 oz Edge: Unsharpened P.O.B.: 3 5/8'' Thickness: 4.4 mm - 3.5 mm Width: 69.1 mm Grip Length: 3 1/2'' Pommel: Peened its a heavy sword with a small but sufficient brass grip the blade is peened to the what looks to be a cast polished grip no slipping when swinging the blade is very substantial come blunt but has a nice Polish steel unknown now the bad part as I swung it I noted a clicking sound also reported on a review on myarmory.com I realized the blade was shifting about a 1mm when swung no biggie then I decided to do some test cutting on some small branches just to get a feel for the sword That didn't last long as the peen came loose and the blade came loose making it un-usable I took notice the gap inside the handle and the tang which created the problem had it been peened and pinned and filled with epoxy then the design might work much like how Scorpion swords are made so back to windlass it goes I'm moving on to a falcata better built as a sword should not fail after 3 strikes against a 2in branch So I give it a thumbs. Down unless you want a project sword the price was right just not the handle :cry: Thank you for your time kultofathena.com/images/500062_5_l.jpgkultofathena.com/images/500062_3_l.jpgkultofathena.com/images/500062_2_l.jpgkultofathena.com/images/500062_1_l.jpgkultofathena.com/images/500062_4_l.jpg
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 27, 2011 18:32:58 GMT
Pictures, man! The peen and such is regrettable. That said, branches are a bit of a hard target. Had you sharpened it (I noticed you didn't mention that)? Why not test it on something like water bottles or milk jugs first?
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Sébastien
Senior Forumite
Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,967
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Post by Sébastien on Apr 27, 2011 18:44:52 GMT
Striking a branch with a sword is abusive and can be dangerous. Many years ago, a guy nearly died after cleaving his leg will trying to hack apart vines with his Gladius replica (it was a functionnal, battle-ready blade btw, not an SLO). I suggest that you avoid doing that again.
Plus, although Windlass aren't completely bad swords, they aren't the toughest blades around and should be used on lighter targets IMHO.
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Post by Enkidu on Apr 27, 2011 19:20:57 GMT
You are right Seb, but with a falcata design, if it was small branches i wouldnt have worried to much and could have easily tried the cut myself. The way those blade are designed they were made to pack an extra punch in the cut. If the whole assembly broke down... i too would be expecting something sturdier. I'm sure there's somewhere at BudK a falcata-like blade at half the price that could have got trough those branches without falling apart. ( yes, i said BudK lol ). But.. i havent seen those said branches Anyhow, you are still right, branches are not a good medium to test a sword, still its a disapointment.
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Post by joeydac on Apr 27, 2011 19:46:37 GMT
im sorry no pics as i already sent it back to windlass i should have taken pics the root of the problem is the hollow space that alot of windlass swords have between the tang and the handle which when cutting puts all the pressure on the peened end if the sword is not 100% tight against the guard all in all its a very nice sword kultofathena has them for 149.99 i got mine for 99.00 which i thought was great price the blade was very stiff and heavy it would be a beast of a cutter sharp but i didnt even get to do that just did 3 easy downward strikes into a 2-3in sapling and the peen looked as though it folded into itself around the sides of it leaving the handle assembly and the blade hanging sloppy rendering unsafe to cut with as for abuse ive owned alot of swords of all makes and sizes and i dont feel i was abusing the sword testing it on some small branches as its a sword thats quoted as One of the most devastating swords of all time, the inward curve of the falcata's blade delivers a tremendous blow capable of splitting shield and helmet a like. i think its a great design that scorpion swords has done right based on the way they have the tang secured to the handle with pins and the handle is scales not a one piece cast assembly made out of brass if it was a hidden nut style i probably would have kept it and dont the work myself adding epoxy and pinning it i just didnt want to open a can of worms with a tang i coulnt see fully all in all if the handle was built different id fully recommend the sword as the blade as the look of the sword was great very well executed kultofathena.com/images/SBK006S_4_l.jpgkultofathena.com/images/AH4111H_5_l.jpgkultofathena.com/images/501207_4_l.jpgen.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Falca ... .N._Madrid)_03b.jpg en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Falca ... .N._Madrid)_01_vertical.jpg
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Post by joeydac on Apr 27, 2011 20:04:20 GMT
Swords marked as "Battle Ready" are made to a higher standard than your average display weapons. The blades are usually made of carbon steel, as apposed to the more brittle stainless steel and feature longer and stronger tangs. In general "Battle Ready" swords are functional weapons that will live up to some usage. However, "Battle Ready" does not mean indestructible. Any sword can be broken. Use common sense with your sword. A sword being listed as "Battle Ready" does not constitute a guarantee that it will withstand any abuse you can throw at it. Battle ready swords are generally designed to cut and should not be used for blade to blade combat, see below. as listed on kult of athena so now im puzzled whats really battle ready mean to what standard should be considered as this sword is supposed to be able to cut through a wooden shield or a metal helmet so in light of this should certain swords be highlighted as light duty cutters and vice versa like with katanas ? as i can cut a 2in branch with my 20 dollar fiskars machete that doesnt have a full tang and a molded plastic handle but i cant do the same thing with my battle-ready sword that cost 4 times as much i dont feel very battle ready better stick with my machete :?
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Sébastien
Senior Forumite
Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,967
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Post by Sébastien on Apr 27, 2011 21:08:40 GMT
I'll try to explain why I posted what I did earlier, sorry if that sounded a bit gruff and/or preachy. A machete is made for cutting wood. Its steel and blade geometry is usually made for that. Usually, functionnal backyard cutters aren't made the same way. They can, technically, cut wood (hell, Paul Southren did it plenty of times), but might not do it as well as machetes and are more likely to take serious damage while doing that sort of activity. Cold Steel machetes, for example, AFAIK, have a softer steel than most katanas and euro swords. This steel is made to not chip when bitting into wood (a rather strong and tough cutting medium btw) and to be easy to sharpen (although it also makes the edge less durable). Also, the grips of these machetes are made to withstand that kind of shock. I consider wood to be a tough and unpredictable cutting target. Depending on what kind of tree/branch that you strike, wood can be very resilient. Even the resilience of a specific type of wood can be inconsistent, you never fully know how a branch will react to your cut. Now, I don't think anyone on this thread would be the kind of people to swing wildly like a caveman at a tree branch ... But I think accident can and do happen quickly. For example, in the example that I gave, the guy was happily chopping vines and branches with his Gladius. He came upon a rather-tough looking vine and gave a strong swing. The vine finally wasn't that tough. The Gladius went all the way through it and continued its way through one the guy's limb, inflicting him a deep, large cut that might've cost him his life (thankfully, he got first aid and help quickly). BTW, here's the whole story, with picture in support ; sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... 150&page=1 One last thing ; I think most of today's replica, especially on the sub-300 $ market, aren't the same as the bladed weapons of our ancestors. Plus, even the swords of ancient times (who were probably tougher and livelier than many of the replicas that we can buy today) weren't made to bash through shields and armors. These were made to take the abuse of chopping bad guy's flesh and withstand the occasionnal, unwanted blade-on-blade and blade-on-armor/shield bangs, not cut tree branches. They had other tools to do that. So, in the end, I still think that bashing at a tree branch is best done with a cheap machete or large survival knife. Swords, even Falcatas, weren't/aren't made for that IMHO. Tree-branch-cutting with a sword is risking damage to that sword and/or its wielder.
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Post by joeydac on Apr 27, 2011 21:26:11 GMT
i understand where your coming from as i have seen the pic of that guy before but as i have stated it was a blunt blade the tree was nothing large and yes i could have easily cut it with a knife or machete but as i havent built a tire pell in my yard and im out of tatami mats i tried some staightforward cuts which resulted in the peen rolling inward and allowing the hilt to loosen i might add thank you for the words of concern but this aint my first rodeo and where not collecting baseball cards the purpose of battle=ready swords is to replace dangerous wall hangers which i wasnt swinging wildly either but in light i could have used my wallhanger william wallace sword and got better results a sword that is properly peened should not fail after 3 cuts i wasnt hitting a steel pole it was a sapling that i could have easily cut through with a 49 dollar musashi katana i expect at least the same performance from a sword thats listed over 200 dollars even though based on its performance i consider it a wallhanger im gonna try a generation 2 version in the coming weeks hopefully il have better results i dont condone sword abuse or lack of training but i do expect a higher level of quality as this isnt my first windass or sword
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Post by joeydac on Apr 27, 2011 21:45:30 GMT
all in all it was a nice sword just bad hilt design windlass likes to drill out the center if there handles to allow room for the tang instead of making two halves out of wood or whatever and shaping the middle if the handle to the tang then peening it making a tighter fit and as result when cut with the shockwaves go through the whole hilt not just the peened end which is what happened after it loosened i could take the blade still peened and move it up and down at least a 1/2 out of center that tells me the handle which is supposed to be solid brass had a big space in it in the middle thats a poor design and a waste of material thats why when you swing some windless swords they make that ting ting sound that falcata would be great with a brass handle with bone or wood inserts in the middle pinned to the tang that would eliminate the space and the problem and tighten everything up making it a better cutter its not a ancient secret we just dont build things to last in modern times its the walmart generation www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_grip.asp
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Greg
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,800
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Post by Greg on Apr 28, 2011 0:51:20 GMT
I have swung to low when doing bottle cutting and MANY times have cut 2" or more out of my cutting stand. But this was an accident. Granted, it DID cut through the stand and my blade did not loosen. So yeah, Windlass makes A LOT of mediocre swords. Some are really good, some aren't all that great, but they are in the market to put out as many styles as they can. I think that the falcata would have eventually loosened even if you were cutting bottles with it and that there is a design flaw in the blade. But SeaBass is right. Swords should be used on trees. Anymore the term "Battle Ready" just applies to the sword being made out of some sort of carbon steel with some sort of heat treatment. I wish it weren't that way and that congress would pass a law that would say something to the effect of: "You may not label a sword as battle ready unless said sword could literally be taken back through time and used in it's appropriate era for it's intended purpose." But I'm not King of the World yet, so that law doesn't exist.
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Post by joeydac on Apr 28, 2011 1:22:37 GMT
Thanks for the support I agree. Windlass quality control needs improvement as does there hilt designs as I had the handle crack on my Pompeii gladius because it was so hollowed out As members of this forum we need to press the industry to make changes that we want it wont be business as usual not We come this far asking for more quality for our money.
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Greg
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,800
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Post by Greg on Apr 28, 2011 1:43:11 GMT
Well, certain companies are responding to our cries, like Darksword. A lot of their recent stuff is coming out with a good distal taper on it and a more proper weight distribution. But Windlass makes the majority of their money from guys that just want a sword, and not sword enthusiasts. (At least that is how I see it)
I'll come out and say it, but there are very few Windlass swords that I'd care to own based on the overall quality of their products.
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Post by joeydac on Apr 28, 2011 2:06:04 GMT
I agree We can get higher standards if the issue is pushed we got windlass to bring back certain swords that were member favorites There seems to be a stigma when it comes to talking about certain vendor issues and I say it has to change
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 28, 2011 17:39:05 GMT
There's a difference between making one's opinion known, and flogging the subject until the horse drops dead, so to speak.
Windlass is willing to bring back certain swords that were popular with the sword enthusiast community; however, unlike most other sword manufacturers, Windlass' focus is upon producing a large number of weapons, many of which are reproductions of this or that movie or game weapons. Their market is just as much the non-enthusiast as it is people who actually know something about swords. As such, their bottom line is quantity, not quality-- if they can sell 200 Robin Hood swords but not 10 Ulfberhts, guess which one gets dropped even though it's the better sword?
The falcata is a historical reproduction, and while I do agree in principle that historical weapons were probably better than modern reproductions in some ways, I think that generally modern weapons are quite possibly (if nothing else) made with more consistent metallurgical quality and predictable strength. Antique Damascus steel swords, for example, were actually quite soft-- one member of MyArmoury has a story about how he bent an antique scimitar in a cutting test, and straightened it back with his hands! Anecdotal evidence, I know, but still.
Should a falcata be able to cut a tree branch? Maybe. But, I wouldn't trust it if I didn't know its construction, and given that the brass hilt of the Windlass version hides the tang, you have no way of knowing how good it's made. Something by Scorpion Swords, though, you *know* it's full tang, and you don't have to worry about it snapping on you.
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Post by joeydac on Apr 28, 2011 18:37:39 GMT
so basically what your saying is anyone that buys a peened sword is taking a gamble on its construction its you say this because there is another post that has a falchion from windlass in the medieval section thats tang broke from the member cutting bottles so what should i as a consumer say thats a shame they must be built like a wallhanger and labled funtional then when im at the hospital getting part of the sword removed out of me or should we as a forum ask for better quality control and higher standards where i work its called iso 9000 maybe the sword community should think about adopting it
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Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
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Post by Sam H on Apr 28, 2011 19:11:06 GMT
I think what Elheru is basically saying was not what you've taken from his post joey.
He is saying that you didn't know the quality of the construction within the hilt of the sword. Bear in mind that full tang doesn't necessarily mean its good. Technically a rat tail tang is a full tang yet its almost universally agreed as being bad for cutting. You shouldn't have made the cuts against a 2-3" sapling with an unsharpened blade anyway much less with a weapon that wasn't designed for that particular use. What did you expect to happen?
Now I've personally cut through 2 and 3" saplings with katana. Was it a good thing to do? Not really but considering at the time I was not concerned with maintaining the sword's integrity but instead testing its cutting ability and durability it was my choice to do. Had the sword been damaged in any way I wouldn't have sent it back to the manufacturer or retailer claiming defectiveness. In fact that fact that your returned sword was accepted by the retailer speaks volumes about how much they're willing to do to satisfy a customer. Were I them I'd be asking you what you were thinking in trying to chop down a tree with a blunt sword and why you think I should take the return after such abuse.
As for peened tangs vs. hex-nut I wouldn't put too much into it. When a tang is peened the only thing keeping the hilt on the sword is the itty little layer of steel that has been peened to become a lip over the pommel. A hex-nut isn't much better - the nut riding on the very small threads that hold it there. If the sword was going to fail it'll fail despite peening or nut tightening.
Windlass has been known for a long time to produce swords that were well... less than suitable for cutting. Think of it - a fellow forumite broke a falcion on water bottles. You expected not to break a dull falcata on saplings? In any case Elheru stated it quite well when he said Windlass is in the business of producing swords for the masses. They don't produce swords for those like ourselves - sword enthusiasts (and frankly sword snobs - I admit it, so should everyone else on this forum lol!). Its the cheap crap that they make the most money on not the stuff we like. As such they won't listen so much to us when we whine, complain or otherwise make noise. We probably comprise such a low percentage of their sales that catering to us at an increased cost of production would be stupid business on their part.
Oh and about retailers and labeling their products. While I look down on that practice I also say that its not the retailer but the end user to be sure the product is safe to use in the manner they want to use it in. Therefore whenever you buy ANY sword from ANYONE despite what they claim you should inspect it yourself and make sure its safe to use the way you want to use it. Frankly if I ended up with a piece of one of my katana in my leg, arm or any other part of my body because I was using the sword in a fashion it wasn't intended to be used in I wouldn't be blaming the manufacturer or retailer. It was because I chose to use the sword in a fashion it wasn't intended to be used in.
Basically inspect your swords for structural integrity (and get the knowledge necessary to make sure your inspection isn't flawed) and afterwards quit blaming others for the outcome of your choices.
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Post by joeydac on Apr 28, 2011 19:27:53 GMT
ok let me state for the record i wasnt trying to cut a tree or branch down with a blunt blade i made 3 focused swings into a small sapling because i heard a tinging noise as i was dry handling i dont have a tire pell i do have a cutting stand but i was not going to sharpen something that i had doubts over secondly they were not full force swings very light focused swings just to get a feel of the weight as i did with each strike the blade became looser till the point i could move it freely up and down in the hilt indicating that the hilt that is advertised as solid was in fact hollow in the middle and the peened end that was holding it tight was that well done because some took a file or gringer to it to make it flush with the pommel therefore weakening a already bad situation i own alot of swords both wallhangers and battle-ready this construction was sub-par and defective it should have never left the factory regardless of how many swords they sell or what market they appeal to how would you feel if you bought that falchion for your kid or this sword and that happened resulting in injury as for inspecting the sword it is peened any sword peened cannot be fully inspected our faith lies in the person assembling it and hope it was right
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Post by joeydac on Apr 28, 2011 19:33:59 GMT
windlass return policy Satisfaction Guaranteed! Quite simply, we declare that we will make good on every order. Please, if you are not 100% SATISFIED with the merchandise that you received, return it to us within 30 days with the original paperwork and we will exchange it or refund your money in the manner paid (*some exceptions apply). This is an IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE! Instructions on the back of packing slip.
*Please Note: We cannot accept returns on sharpened items that are not defective. They may not be returned because of the customization that has been done to the product. Be sure when you order!
You can return anything unused within 30 days for a refund or exchange, whichever you prefer. After 30 days we will repair or replace items that have manufacturing defects. Any returned item accompanied by a receipt will be refunded at the original purchase price of the item(s) in the original payment method. Return your item(s) to us using the return label and enclose the completed return form from your original packing slip. Customers are responsible for return postage. If your order is not received, it is the responsibility of the customer to notify us. No tracer will be placed after 60 day
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Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
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Post by Sam H on Apr 28, 2011 19:51:43 GMT
So you knew there was something wrong with the sword and decided to strike a tree with it anyway? Even then after the first strike you saw the sword's structural integrity being compromised and you continued to swing away? Is this what they teach you where you work in adhering to ISO 9000? If something seems wrong bash it against a tree to diagnose the problem?
I agree it probably should never have left the factory however when you're selling that many swords QC can be compromised. Even Hanwei with is rep for being consistent and reliable has problem swords now and then. Had you not continued to abuse the sword till it broke I'd fully support you on this.
At this point only my 12 yr old daughter is allowed to handle live blades. As such if she had done what you had done I'd be reaming her out for being stupid. She'd then have to give me 20 push ups and 20 V ups for every swing she took at the tree and an additional 20 pull ups for just being stupid. Afterwards I'd make her pay for a replacement sword out of her own money because of her decision to continue to beat on a tree with a dull sword. If she had been injured in the process of being stupid I wouldn't have blamed the company the sword came from - when using a sword one accepts the fact that one can and quite possibly will be harmed should the sword fail. The blame would have been on me for having failed to educate her properly on safety and swords. Partial blame would have fallen on her for just being stupid. IF the blade was indeed defective I would then write to the manufacturer to inform them of the defect more as a courtesy so nobody else suffers the same fate rather than to complain about their product.
Remember they didn't MAKE you swing the sword at a tree.
Re-read my last post again. You need to educate yourself on what to look for and how to judge a sword's usability and also temper your own impetus so as to prevent you from doing things with the sword(s) it wasn't meant to do - unless you are willing to accept the fact that YOU not the manufacturer is to blame when the sword fails.
Good luck with your situation - I hope you find satisfaction somehow. Aside from that I would advise you not handle any swords till you've taken time to really think about this situation.
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Post by joeydac on Apr 28, 2011 20:18:08 GMT
a page from the sword manufacturers guide Apart from the usual kind of Quality control issues often found on mass produced swords at this price point - Windlass Steelcrafts are most often criticized for two main things - overly whippy blades and poor hilt construction.
The heat treating process that makes their swords so reliably flexible often seems to become problematic on their longer swords. A general rule of thumb is that any blade over 32" is almost definitely far too whippy to use as it was intended, and practically useless for thrusting.
However, this problem does even occur on their shorter, one handed swords (though rarer).
This issue does not detract from their swords cutting ability on light targets, but most certainly effects the handling.
The second most common issue is that some Windlass swords have a somewhat rattly hilt construction that makes a disconcerting 'tink-tink' sound when wielded.
Most of these swords can be identified by the 'V' shaped shoulder which tends to leave a small gap between the blade and the hilt. Easily enough fixed by shimming (sticking something into the gap) or an application of polymer epoxy resin, this is actually more annoying than anything else and does not effect the swords overall durability.
As mentioned earlier, the fact that they cycle their lines so often makes it very hard to predict the given properties of any new sword they make
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