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Post by csthundercat on Apr 24, 2011 9:19:33 GMT
Let me preface this ramble with: I'm a swordsnob. I have limited experience with production swords, having handled a few, and never having owned any other than my faithful bugei samurai. Being unable to bring this trusty workhorse or my j-sword collection along with me to my new place of abode, and having gone several months "out of reach" of a decent sword, I thought enough was enough; I had to get myself another blade - asap. It was going to have to be a "house sword" (appartment sword) , rather than a longsword. To spare my bank account from getting obliterated to and prevent me going mad for lack of that tsuka palm swell feeling and the touch of rhaspy ray rawhide on my devilish paws, a production j-style blade was in order. That coupled with the fact that I now live in production sword land (China) made an aquisition inevitable - but which....and whos? Im always looking for good deals on swords, but am extremely picky. I collect nihonto, so unless I feel a production sword is REALLY worth the money, ide rather stash the few hundred dollars in the antique blade fund for later. I also have a habit of comparing production swords to nihonto. Some people say this is like apples and oranges, but I feel it is valid and someone needs to do it. If you dont compare reproductions to the real thing, only to other reproductions, at some point the purpose of the repro exercise loses its meaning....anyway....I diverge. It was time to break my "no production sword rule" as I a)had no sword and b)found what looked like a good deal. Having watched huawei for a while, I had decided that although their fittings leave a lot to be desired, their blade designs show a lot of promise. The sugata of their blades is really noticably better than average and they seem to have experience making a variety of blade profiles unavailable from other vendors. So I thought I would give them a go. I have always been interested in the kogarasu maru. I just looks like such a handy little weapon. A stout little double edged quickdraw side-sword with a thick kasane and interesting lines. Whats not to like? The probems were 1) its a national treasure, 2) a japanese custom would take years and 10Gs and c) nobody makes a good, affordable kissaki moroha zukuri / kogarasu maru impression. That is....until huawei. Ive looked at the other kogarasu maru offerings out there on the market over the last 5 years or so. Many hundreds of dollars and very mediocre looking work. Most are through hardened. Boring. Most are long too....i dont really like long moroha blades..(edit.maybe like them more now)...I saw one once by Sadakatsu which I wouldnt have refused...but...well..yeah. Huawei's looked different. To start with, the blade is DH. Secondly, the sugata is good. Thirdly, the steel is T10. We now know that T10 with a decent heat treat can produce a pleasing hamon. Ok, it still doesnt capture the beauty, variety and subtlety of traditional J blade materials, but I honestly think its a damn sight closer to the real thing than hanwei's frosty offerings. Apologies for the photo quality.... So....onto the meat and tatties.... Full price including shipping to me was $176 US, no extra shipping charges :mrgreen: Although the fittings are indeed inferior to some other other suppliers', I bought this sword for the blade and I was not disappointed. Main problems with the koshirea are standard - poorly shaped kurikata, gaudy fittings, poor tsukamaki. When I say poor, I mean when I give it my "love grip" I can feel it squish a little. I dont like that. A good ito should be pretty much rock solid, and huawei's doesnt make the cut in that respect. With just a little messing with the wrap I can see it is glued down in places and is generally of semi-pro (at best) quality and workmanship. Certainly nothing to write home about. This didnt bother me so much. I was mentally prepared for a lemon of a tsuka and fittings. The tsuka was very tight and although I had guessed that trying to remove it without a lump hammer would be a futile endevor, a gave it a shot anyway. My suspicions were confirmed however, so I gave up shortly after attempting. Too tight is far better than too loose, so all things considered its not too appaulling. A slight disappointment is the habaki, whos mune ji both slant down at a more accute angle than those of the blade at the munemachi, leaving two nailcatchers about 0.7 of an mm high on the munemachi exposed. Not a huge deal but a slight annoyance for nitpickers like me. Everything else is well executed. I am quite impressed with the depth of the finish on the saya; although it is an acrylic paint spray job, it is fairly well done. Koiguchi is good; as of yet, no shimming required and no rattling at all. Kojiri is rounded. Now the blade.. As mentioned before, I am aware of the other kogarasu maru type offerings out there. There are numerous posts on this board and the old SGB forums about moroha zukuri suppliers. Having read what I have read, I am certain that none of them live up to huawei's in terms of quality and value for money. I would go so far as to say that they are likely all out better than anything else of their type out there. Why? Well.... start with sugata. The shape of this sword is accurate and has been produced carefully. (Note: not to the dimensions or shape of THE kogarasu maru, but accurate in terms of the conventions of japanese swords and this blade shape.) Which is a good start. Nagasa is 51cm. Moroha kissaki is 30cm, Naginata hi is 21cm. About 27cm of the moroha top edge is razor sharp. They didnt get this wrong. No false edge, no "pretend" moroha like you get from some other suppliers. A good, smooth transition from mune to edge with differential hardening all the way. This is the real deal. The hamon is nice. Subtle in places with the right lighting...though the finish isnt perfect. Again, I'm a nitpicker - I took a halogen bulb to the blade and gave it a thorough inspection. Part of the naginata hi on the ura is a little cloudy, as is the tip in a few spots. A few points down the central hi could also do with a touch up, but none of these areas are visible under normal lighting and do not cause me any distress. What would I change about it...? Maybe make the hamon suguha, improve the polish slightly (not a further grade, just make the current grade a touch more thorough) and perhaps cut the bo-hi a little deeper, though they are already really quite good and for their complexity, the best I've seen on a production sword, especially one in this price range. Blade has not seen much action, but the two water bottles and a few unlucky vegetables are testament enough. Both edges are extremely sharp and produced clean cuts. Bo-hi produces a rich swooshing tachikaze which is pleasing. All in all, I am very happy with this blade. I will be buying from huawei again in the future, making them my official go-to for affordable custom blades. If the forge/factory making these could sort out the few issues I mentioned and just put that little bit of extra effort in, they would pose a serious threat to the competition in the market. If anyone is thinking about this little blade though I would go for it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2011 13:20:44 GMT
Nice! I'm picturing vegetables being thrown in the air, chopped up, and coming down right into the stew pot.
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Post by csthundercat on Apr 25, 2011 0:14:28 GMT
lol.....veg ninja. seriously though....I dont do that haha
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 25, 2011 0:29:37 GMT
This is my least favorite blade style... but I had an old Oni Forge sword in this style you might have liked... it was very impresive.
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Post by csthundercat on Apr 25, 2011 8:11:10 GMT
But its such a great blade style and hard to produce well! Backhanded cuts with a saber? Sean, whats not to like!?
Im less a fan of moroha zukuri longswords, but they are still fantastic weapons. My aesthetic tastes used to be limited to shinogi zukuri with chu kissaki...but theres so much more to japanese swords than that!
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Post by bleachsword on Apr 25, 2011 8:19:46 GMT
Great review "csthundercat I'm a swordsnob." I wish you were'nt you would like so manny other swords.(except slo's, slo's are discusting)
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Post by csthundercat on Apr 25, 2011 9:43:00 GMT
To bleachsword - "you would like so many other swords" But......I wouldnt. I have been into swords for some time now....for me, it has been a case of gently reducing the scope of what I am interested in - little by little. I wasnt born a sword snob, I became (warped into - bwahahaha) one. The purpose is to save my time and money; to condense the things I really DO like about swords into just a few pieces which I would like to own. My aim is not to amass a huge quantity of sharp steel. My aim is to collect a limited number of exceptional pieces of art and tangible heritage. Sure, I love messing with all kinds of swords, but I dont have the time, money or inclination to "catch 'em all". When it comes to production swords, they have to fit into the niche of having some kind of training purpose - in this case getting used to handling a double edged saber, performing noto correctly with this type of blade and becoming skilled in back-handed cuts. I wont just buy a sword because it is a functional sword. I dont like a sword just because it is a functional sword. I dont like a sword just because it is a japanese sword, or even an antique japanese sword - not just any old japanese sword makes the cut!! For the antique blades and fittings I buy, they have to be collectible in some way, unique (yes, they are all unique, but I mean REALLY unique), well crafted, beautiful and within a budget. I am extremely picky about this. I have spent many hours over the last seven or so years researching - looking through dusty acution catalogues and dealers websites, along with numerous other web based resources, such as this one. It is amazing in the world of japanese swords that for the same price you can either get a very bad sword or a very good one - if you just know what to look for and who to buy from. This is also part of the fun, developing a discerning eye. Very useful if you want to collect art as a pastime. Dont get me wrong. Im not snooty towards people who collect swords I wouldnt collect. When it comes to production swords however, I have a greater respect for those that can use them well than I have for those who have a vast quantity of them in the attic. Just my outlook. Production swords are for using, quality antique blades are for....dare i say it... babying
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 25, 2011 17:55:37 GMT
First and foremost, I just hate the look of it. When I first saw one I thought it was one of the many cheesy Anime swords you see out these days... like the reverse blade katana that is sharp where the mune should be... :roll: I got my face smacked by Marc Ridgeway and learned its a valid historical blade configuration... but I still can't stand the look of it. It takes what to me is the clean elegant lines of the Katana and muddles em all up. Different strokes and all that.
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Post by csthundercat on Apr 26, 2011 1:41:36 GMT
Ah.....so you fell into the elephant trap of thinking that what you recognised as "standard" production katana were representitive of japanese swords - this is exactly why i mentioned previously that I think production swords should be compared with nihonto and not other production swords. Your experience with swords to date was based on what you thought a japanese sword was, and you were bamboozled by your own snobbery! (by thinking it was a "cheesy anime" sword...) lol. This has sadly inhibited your ability to appreciate the "little crow" And deservedly so! haha "Valid", historical, and one of the oldest. Basically the "missing link" between chinese jian and single edged tachi. Yeah... good taste and all that. Some people have it, others dont. Seriously though, the elegant lines of what katana? I guess youre referring to a shinogi zukuri sugata? Which other sugata do you consider elegant and which do you think are not? Usually I judge a sword or blade as a whole as elegant or otherwise, I dont have predispositions towards particular blade shapes. In reality, shinogi zukuri, shobu zukuri, unokubi, etc are simplified forms of this blade type. They were predominant basically because they were quicker and easier to make than moroha blades.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 26, 2011 2:04:15 GMT
Shobu Zukuri and Unokubi Zukuri are my personal favorite Katana styles...
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 26, 2011 2:16:16 GMT
The only dominant blade is shinogi zukuri. Shobu zukuri was distant second in term of commonality. The rest are quite rare, for good reason. They were fail prototypes before the arrival of shinogi zukuri. They went through the R&D process, put on the field and were rejected by the people who used them.
The vast majority of blades were (and are) shinogi zukuri, chu kissaki, suguha hamon because these features are the best features for the majority of combative scenario. All of the other blade profiles came and gone. Shinogi zukuri stay. Even now, the katana profile that grace the obi of many great swordsman performing embu are shinogi zukuri. Perhaps they need to mature their taste.
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Post by csthundercat on Apr 26, 2011 4:45:27 GMT
Hello again student. Time for another history lesson. Nonsense. What we know as "shinogi zukuri" sugata is a japanese refinement of a blade profile from China, and one that was pretty much as old as steel swords themselves. The profile found fame during the tang dynasty (swords often referred to as 'tang dao') with the rise of the Tang court. The decorated 'tang dao' incidentally is also where tachi fittings and susequently handachi fittings are originally derived from.
Sorry, but shinogi zukuri sugata didnt "arrive" after japanese r&d. As noted above, basic "shinogi zukuri" in Tang dao and jo-koto (chokuto) was as old as and probably older even than the Tang dynasty; as far as the history of Japanese blades go - it was always there.
It was Amakuni that was credited with both the introduction of curved japanese blades and the kogarasu maru (although the latter is doubtful). Moroha zukuri blades are basically dao/jian crossbreeds; the best of both worlds essentially, and only appeared when steel technology and craft in japan reached a high enough level, c.700AD. One point of contention is that there are those who believe the kogarasu maru (contemporary with the Tang dynasty) to be a suriage polearm, but there is no evidence to support this.
They are the most predominant but not for the reasons you mention. Yes shinogi zukuri is the most prominent, yes chu kissaki is also the most predominant kissaki type. However no, suguha hamon is not the most common hamon, and no, shinogi zukuri with chu kissaki is not the most common simply because of combative scenario application - Midare variations are the most common form of hamon (due to ease and speed of production). Shinogi zukuri was also the predominant blade type because of ease of manufacture and its relative effectivness as a single edged blade profile - less to do with battlefield superiority as a blade type in itself, much more to do with ease and simplicity of effective weapon production.
Great swordsmen and great sword experts are almost never the same people (except for a few notable exceptions). Most of the time, the greatest experts are polishers and the greatest swordmen are/were soldiers and kenjutsu teachers, men of modest means. Simply put, historically, most of them wouldnt have been able to afford other blade configurations. In attition, the form and style of their martial arts was shaped by the weapons they had access to - not the other way around.
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 26, 2011 5:23:32 GMT
I have no idea where your sources came from. But your version history of katana is essentially nonsense. Highly recommend: "The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords" by Kokan Nagayama. I am not at home and have no access to the book but Nagayama Sensei disagreed with everything you just said.
Chukoto and shinogi zukuri, other than being single edge, has no other commonality. Chukuto came from Tang single edge dao. But after that, the Japanese sword evolved on its own with the last incarnation being shinogi zukuri. Again highly recommend that you check your facts with a good book. There are vast body of literature disagreeing with your statements, both on the history of katana as well as the relationship between blade profile and combative application.
But if you insisting on believing your own version of history and disregard established facts, that is your choice and I have nothing else to say.
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Post by csthundercat on Apr 26, 2011 6:27:54 GMT
Which part of my "version"? Please specify. My sources amusingly include one that you recommend to me - see below.
I own this book, and I can happy point out to you that nothing I said is in disagreement with Kokan Nagayama. If you want to split hairs, Nagayama said, as I did, that the shinogi zukuri is derived from kiriha zukuri (aka, chinese origin, tang dao) blades. The main differences between the two are a higher shinogi ji, sori and a slightly differently shaped kissaki. Other features and blade shape are basically very similar, the main differences being the geometric proportions of the surfaces and curvature.
Nakayama said that the shinogi zukuri was what the tang dao, over time, with japanese innovation evolved into. He certainly said nothing about japanese smiths cycling through all the aforementioned blade shapes and through a process of "battlefield r&d" arriving at shinogi zukuri. That is the nonsense. Shinogi zukuri is THE oldest blade shape originating in Japan, and the oldest blade shape to be found in japan - aside from those of imported chinese swords and jo-koto blades (some of which were hira zukuri as well as kiriha). All other blade shapes come AFTER shinogi zukuri, and are adaptations thereof. Just look at any tachi from the Heian.
This is incorrect and addressed above also. They have a gread deal of commonality, being as one is a direct innovation of the other. Shinogi zukuri is the last incarnation of the japanese sword? - No. It is the FIRST. It represents the BIRTH of the true japanaese sword - a sword which is completely a product of japan and no where else. For example - Kanmuri otoshi, unokubi zukuri, osaraku zukuri etc, are all later modifications of shinogi zukuri designed to lighten the blade wilst maintaining most of the structrual integrity, or in the case of osakaru blades "put on a show". They all came MUCH LATER. Lastly, they didnt evolve "on their own". Their evolution depended partly on smiths, but even more heavily on the needs/requirements of those who were PAYING smiths to produce them. (These 'needs' were most often of the - "as many viable weapons you can provide me with for X amount of rice/gold/whatever" variety, hence the predominance of what is essentially a simple but effective sugata - shinogi zukuri)
No there isnt. I would be very grateful if you could show me just one example in established literature which goes against anything I have said in this thread.
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Post by bleachsword on Apr 26, 2011 6:54:08 GMT
Could you agree to disagree and end this here, this is neithor the time place nor thred for this take it to pm's if you must but do not continue it here.
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Post by csthundercat on Apr 26, 2011 7:06:08 GMT
:oops: Youre probably right bleach.... but this stuff should be known. The evolutionary path of japanese swords from their chinese origins is part of elementary japanese swords 101. But I suppose there will always be creationalists! :lol:
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 26, 2011 17:13:53 GMT
Not to put to fine a point on it bleachsword... but I do think it is somewhat arrogant to come into a thread that csthundercat started and tell him what not to do in his own thread. I would like to see the 'heat' of the debate between he and SoS brought down a bit before it becomes a mudslinging fest, sure... but the debate itself is interesting to me and does relate to the evolution of the sword in question... and, again, it is HIS thread, so what, if I may ask, do you think gives you the right to tell him not to continue the debate in his own thread? That is almost like you coming up to me in class while doing a presentation on a subject and telling me to stop... or coming into my home and telling me to stop drinking milk. Its rude.
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Post by ecovolo on Apr 26, 2011 17:41:20 GMT
. . . and we're locking the topic until people have a chance to cool off a bit.
--Edward
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Post by ecovolo on Apr 27, 2011 1:04:08 GMT
. . .and we're unlocking the thread.
I see some book titles being thrown around. If you decide to use a book as proof, *Quote it*, abbreviated MLA-style (read: author, book title, page number).
If this thread devolves into mudslinging, we'll lock it down for good.
--Edward
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 27, 2011 2:04:43 GMT
I hope it won't come to that... I for one find the debate interesting and informative... as long as it can be conducted with some decorum.
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