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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 9:00:50 GMT
Hey guys,
This one is aimed at the smiths among us, I am just wondering how light and thin a sword blade can be before it is compromised in strength or the ability to cut through harder targets like tatami and dowel?
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Jan 29, 2008 9:07:15 GMT
Depends what sort of sword you had in mind.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jan 29, 2008 11:10:07 GMT
Yeah I'm sure that would open a whole can of technical worms. Pick a sword type and I'll offer my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 15:19:38 GMT
As light as you want it to be! In fact the thinner a sword is the stronger it gets, as it is much easier for it to flex(with proper heat treatment of course), the same goes for knives as well, depending on the use and purpose of the blade.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jan 29, 2008 15:39:41 GMT
As light as you want it to be! In fact the thinner a sword is the stronger it gets, as it is much easier for it to flex(with proper heat treatment of course), the same goes for knives as well. I don't know if that could be true as a blanket statement, could it Sam? Obviously distal taper helps by reducing weight projecting past the point of impact, thus reducing torsion on the blade at impact, and thus stress. And reduced thickness at the point of impact reduces the energy lost in spreading the target making for an easier cut and less chance of being jammed in a target, thus reducing stress. But that thinness has the disadvantage of reducing mass and enertia needed to force through the target. This means that in cutting blades width is essential to add that mass, but then at the expense of increased friction from surface area. Further down the blade closer to the hilt thickness must surely help to reduce flex through the arc of attack thus increasing the chance that the sword will impact at the proper angles, rather than mid bow all askew. And also reducing flex as the user follows through the cut in oposition to the blades natural desire to stop at resistance, thus reducing stress. (ie. transferring power throughout the arc of motion) And what about thrusting swords. Thickness adds rigidity and mass behind the point increasing the likely hodd of successfully piercing a target and reducing the chance of folding ones' sword. For example is a spear not a stronger thrusting tool than a sword, especially a thin sword. Then theres Chopping swords. Is not an axe a superior chopper to a sword, with a greater (and thicker) mass behind the point of impact. The swords I have with the least maximum thickness are the ones that have failed me and are retired to the shelves. I agree that distal taper is a requisite in cutting swords, but don't understand how the thinnest blades overall can be categorically dubbed the strongest. By your reason a Wu Shu sword is the strongest.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 15:43:31 GMT
I was just thinking about how light the jingum is and I was wondering how light and thin you could make one of those things and still be able to handle targets like tatami? Or how about a curved saber? I have just been thinking about elements of combat and how much faster they would be with a lighter sword, but how light can a sword be made that will still do what it was designed to do
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 17:16:08 GMT
I don't know if that could be true as a blanket statement, could it Sam? Obviously distal taper helps by reducing weight projecting past the point of impact, thus reducing torsion on the blade at impact, and thus stress. And reduced thickness at the point of impact reduces the energy lost in spreading the target making for an easier cut and less chance of being jammed in a target, thus reducing stress. But that thinness has the disadvantage of reducing mass and enertia needed to force through the target. This means that in cutting blades width is essential to add that mass, but then at the expense of increased friction from surface area. Further down the blade closer to the hilt thickness must surely help to reduce flex through the arc of attack thus increasing the chance that the sword will impact at the proper angles, rather than mid bow all askew. And also reducing flex as the user follows through the cut in oposition to the blades natural desire to stop at resistance, thus reducing stress. (ie. transferring power throughout the arc of motion) And what about thrusting swords. Thickness adds rigidity and mass behind the point increasing the likely hodd of successfully piercing a target and reducing the chance of folding ones' sword. For example is a spear not a stronger thrusting tool than a sword, especially a thin sword. Then theres Chopping swords. Is not an axe a superior chopper to a sword, with a greater (and thicker) mass behind the point of impact. The swords I have with the least maximum thickness are the ones that have failed me and are retired to the shelves. I agree that distal taper is a requisite in cutting swords, but don't understand how the thinnest blades overall can be categorically dubbed the strongest. By your reason a Wu Shu sword is the strongest. No you are right it isn't a blanket statement i didn't mean it to be. it is a very fine line between what you and/or the customer wants the sword to do. WHile you do need mass for powerful cuts, too much will be heavy and too little will be like you said barely able to cut. I never said thinnest blades would be the strongest, i meant that beleive it or not a thinner blade will be less likely to take a set than a thicker blade. A sword will get it's strength from either a super thick geometry, or being slightly on the thinner side, and flexing under stress rather than bending. keep in mind swords were meant to cut, and you have to tailor your blade to it's specific targets, which you can see in the evolution of swords all over the world as armor got more and more advanced. Light and thin and fast slashers for soft armor, spike geometry stabbers against mail and plate. Which swords are you taling about that are retired to the shelf? production swords or ones you have made? There is alot of variables going on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2008 15:14:21 GMT
Wow, I forgot this thread, whoops!
Anyway I was just wondering how light and thin you could make a sabre or a shamshir and yet it still have enough mass to cut through light targets? I have handled a few blades and they all seem on the thick side, even sabres which should be thinner. Also as I said the jingum, a Korean martial arts sword which is renowned for its lightness and quicksilver blade speeds.
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Post by oos3thoo on Feb 13, 2008 2:44:16 GMT
There is a video of Paul slicing through water bottles with a wushu blade.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 2:58:34 GMT
I don't think that is a wushu blade mate, it is a hanwei chinese sword not wushu.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 3:00:39 GMT
There is a video of Paul slicing through water bottles with a wushu blade. Yikes! That still doesn't make it a real sword. I was actually disappointed to see Paul do that. But it is his site and I am more than biased because of my personal vendetta against wushu swords.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 3:27:03 GMT
It isn't a wushu sword, it is made out of decent enough steel and it isn't floppy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 11:23:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 14:30:48 GMT
So what's the big deal?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 15:14:19 GMT
A wushu sword will still kill a man just like those flexible whips that are used in certain martial arts. The big deal Sam is that wushu steel is s**t and that people should stop using it because it is better to use a real sword and wushu steel does not perform like real steel and it will throw your forms all to hell when you switch to real steel.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 16:34:39 GMT
By wushu steel, do you mean the type of steel itself or the fact that it is whippy?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 16:55:18 GMT
The fact that the blade is so flexible you bend it around in a circle with very little effort. Not sure about the actual steel itself but having handled them and having handled their real world counterparts, the wushu blades are complete crap and if you use it too long you pick up bad habits because of the mechanics of the blade.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2008 1:39:00 GMT
Aren't they for tai chi practitioner's, not really using it in a combative way? Seems to me that if someone were to buy one of these to learn to use a sword, it wouldn't be the sword's fault it would be they're own dumbass fault.
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Post by Dan Davis on Feb 15, 2008 13:46:00 GMT
Let's not forget that there is often a difference between the real thing and the "popular" reproductions. All the actual "wushu" swords that I have ever handled have been relatively stiff with flexibility and stiffness comparable to a late rennaissance rapier blade. Indeed, they are the rapiers of the chinese world.
In contrast, most of what you see in our western world are very lightweight and are essentially spring steels without any hardness at all. They are generally not bad steels but are heat treated to be flexible and tough. These represent a "beginner's" sword in China, but in the USA almost no one ever progresses to using the real thing so you rarely see those here. It's kinda like taking a wooden waster into combat and calling it your bastard sword.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2008 12:47:34 GMT
Giving a beginner a wushu sword is tantamount to cutting their throats. I have seen practitioners get a real sword after years of doing kung fu with wushu swords, they get a real sword and it takes them half as long again to get their forms right with the real thing because of blade dynamics and the difference between a good tempered sword and a floppy c**k wushu blade.
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