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Post by Grindhouse on Apr 16, 2011 12:59:22 GMT
I know this kind of topic about kaze vs practical or sub 300$ katanas comes up very often. But i just can't make my mind which one to choose.
First of, i'm pretty much a noob and i have no technic. I bought a couple of weeks ago a kill bill replica katana 1060 high carbon. It's not the musashi one, it's the masahiro one i think. Anyway, not great quality but it looks pretty good on the wall. paid 85$, i could have probably get something better for the price, but now the lesson is learned. Was supposed to be ''extremely sharp'' but it's not. It's sharp but not enough for my liking.
Budget : 250-300$ (but i could go up to 350$ if it's worth it)
What i want : A very sharp blade out of the box (i want to be afraid of the blade when i touch it, lol), that will stay sharp, and that is also durable/resistent, i don't want to risk to chip the blade or something.
What i'll use it for : Backyard cutting, mostly plastic bottles. And i want to cut plastic bottles like if they are butter. But even though i'll use the sword only for plastic bottles, i still want a sword that is good enough to cut Tatami easily, if i ever can find some.
I spent a lot of time looking on differents websites and reading reviews. And i can't make my mind.
A couple of days ago i was set to buy a Cheness Kaze. It looked to me like a good balance between natural hamon, solid 9260 alloy and very sharp out of the box. Then i read some reviews from people complaining that their Kaze didn't come very sharp out of the box and they had to sharpen it themself. I don't want to do that. And now i'm not sure if i should buy a Kaze.
Then I thought about going with the Hanwei practical katanas. They are supposely very sharp. They are made of 1566 alloy right ? it's a mix of high carbon and what ? How does it compare with a 9260 alloy (silicon/carbon) ? Some people say the Hanwei practical katana are too brittle and that they could chip.... Can't say i find them very attractive either, i think the Kaze looks better.
I also considered the Tenchi, but apparently it's not very sharp. Not as sharp as a Kaze... IF indeed the Kaze IS sharp out of the box... which is not clear to me reading contradictory reviews....
I really don't know what to get : Kaze that is supposed to be sharp but we don't really know. Practical that seems more brittle. Tenchi, well, sharp or not ?
I also considered the Hanwei bamboo mat. Reviews said it's an awsome sword for under 400$. But on kultofathena.com it cost 479$, that's too expensive.
Thx for help. Make me suggestion.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 16, 2011 13:30:00 GMT
Hanwei blades have jumped in price since they recently had a fire at their factory.
I'd suggest one of their Raptor line of katanas. Not DH, but they're uniformly reviewed as tough and sharp.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Apr 16, 2011 15:00:56 GMT
Kaze: Cheness had made a reputation for themselves as having very tough blades with their 9260 steel. Their fittings however (tsuba, fuchi, kashira etc.) are of poorer quality especially with the presence of other swords with better fittings at that same price point (Hanwei Raptors). I was a fan of Cheness at one point in time but their failure to move forward in their sword offerings has lead me to lean more toward Hanwei (ok I've always loved Hanwei).
Hanwei's Practical series katana are VERY sharp right out of the box and while others have complained about brittleness I personally have handled many many katana from Hanwei and have cut with almost every sword from their Practical line. I've NEVER had a Hanwei Practical series katana chip, warp or otherwise get damaged (after I was taught how to use a sword properly that is). Any damage I did to Hanwei swords I accept as being my fault and not an issue with the weapon.
The Raptors are an excellent series of katana for the money - in my mind probably the best value for your money if you want to do some serious cutting and haven't got much or any training in sword use. While the tsuka are seen as unfavorable by some and too large by others I haven't had a problem with them. Yes they could use some shaping for aesthetic reasons but I haven't found them to hamper my cutting.
The Bamboo Mat katana from Hanwei is an excellent sword for the price even at a price of $479 from KoA. If its within your budget go ahead and get it - you won't be disappointed. Otherwise I can fully recommend one of the Practical series katana (even a basic Practical Katana) and they will perform very well for you so long as you do your part in the cutting.
Overall if you're inexperienced in cutting or have little to no training in swords I strongly recommend the Raptors from Hanwei.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Apr 16, 2011 15:08:38 GMT
ooh, I finally have enough experience to give someone some usefully information. Yes!
I have both a Tenchi SGC and a Kaze. (I'm still not experienced, I have just cut with both) The Kaze has a significant amount of customization done to it (not by me), but I don't think that should affect any major handling attributes.
In terms of handling the SGC is like a tank compared to the Kaze. It is significantly beefer and heavier in my hand. This is good and bad. Though the Kaze changes directions quicker (I never had a problem with the SGC in this regard) it doesn't have as much weight to carry it through a cut. In particular when I am doing cuts that are as little trickier I have to make sure I am accelerating the blade the entire way through the target. With the SGC I could swing it quickly, then almost let it float through the target as I focused on edge alignment.
For instance, when using the Kaze I find it much easier to get still cuts on bottles when cutting from a simple overhead cut, but I actually have to try significantly harder to get though a bottle when trying an upwards or horizontal cut. The first couple tries I used it I batted the bottles across the yard. Only when I went back to focusing on 100% speed could I get through them.
So the Kaze is sharper, but it seems like the narrower cross section of the SGC makes up for that somewhat.
In terms of durability I have used and abused my Tenchi, and the only damage I have is some small nicks in the tip from when I accidently sliced into the ground and hit a rock. I have only had one cutting session with the Kaze so I can't say much other than when I missed and hit the concrete floor it suffered a similar fate. :cry:
And as Sam H has mentioned the Tsubas on both are loose.
I've only held a Raptor, never cut with one. But they come very highly recommended. Knowing what I do now I probably would have gone with one of them for my first sword.
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Post by Grindhouse on Apr 16, 2011 15:35:42 GMT
The tsusa on the Kaze and Tenchi is loose ? Wow. Like it's not held in place properly ? it's not tight enough ?
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Apr 16, 2011 15:42:32 GMT
It just rattles a little bit. It isn't in danger of going anywhere, or a safety hazard in the least. It didn't arrive lose, just worked it's way like that over the span of a month or so. If you want I could post a video of the rattle (if someone else doesn't know of one already)
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Post by Grindhouse on Apr 16, 2011 15:46:51 GMT
Thx for your replys. So far i'm looking for these : Not sure what is the diffenrece between these two raptors, except for some little width and lenght differences. -Hanwei Raptor Shobu Zukuri Katana - SH2417 225$ (5160 high carbon) -Hanwei Raptor Shinogi Zukuri Katana - SH2414 240$ (5160 high carbon) So much practical available... Not sure about those XL, i tend to prefer a more conventional 30-32mm width. -Hanwei Practical Plus XL Light Katana - SH6001LPF 260$ (material ?) -Hanwei Practical Plus XL Katana - SH6001XPF 260$ (material ?) -Hanwei Practical Plus Katana Classic - PC2073 235$ (material ?) -Hanwei Practical Plus Elite Katana - SH6001 250$ (material ? ) What are the Practical steel made of ? Some models are listed with 1566 high carbon, but for the 250$ models the steel isnt specified. ( www.kultofathena.com) How would you compare a 5160 to a 1566 ? Which one can keep a sharper edge and which one is the more resistent ? Are the raptor 5160 as sharp as a practical ? Also, is it better to have a tsuka with cotton, suede or leather ? Or is it just a question of preferences ? |
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Post by 14thforsaken on Apr 16, 2011 15:58:58 GMT
You might also want to look into Munetoshi's Katanas. Sword and Armory sells them and there several models under $350. I personal have a couple of them, the T-10 Light Cutter and the Akitsushima. Both perform very well and I have not had any issues with them.
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Post by Grindhouse on Apr 16, 2011 19:50:42 GMT
Does anyone know what steel is used for the hanwei practical katana serie ? It's very confusing.
The SBG review state that :
''Practical plus katana'' is 1065
''Practical Katana'' is 1065
''Practical Pro katana'' is 1065
''Practical XL katana'' is 1566
''Practical XL light katana'' is 1566 (but later in the description it also say it's made from 1095 carbon steel)
''Practical Plus Elite katana'' is 1566
The KultofAthena website :
''Practical XL Light Katana'' is 1566
''Practical XL Katana'' is 1566
''Practical Elite Katana'' is 1566
(All the other are not specified)
Is that information correct ? Some of them are 1065 while some are 1566 ?
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 16, 2011 20:01:42 GMT
I can't really help you with the steels, but as far as the Raptor series go, I can tell you that shobu zukuri and shinogi zukuri are specifically two forms of katana shape. Shinogi zukuri is the most common; a curved blade with a clearly defined kissaki (division between yokote, or tip, and rest of the edge). Shobu zukuri lacks the kissaki, so the edge flows cleanly from blade to point without interruption. Unokubi zukuri is like a shobu or shinogi, but the back of the last half of the blade (from the middle to the tip) is false-edged; that's not really the best term to use, but it's the best I can think of! The Nanbokucho is basically just another shobu zukuri, it's named after a period of Japanese history. Hope that helps; check out the pictures on Kult of Athena if you need more. This is a superb site for learning more about the different shapes of Japanese sword-- www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html |
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Apr 16, 2011 22:42:13 GMT
Completely honestly between those swords the difference in minute carbon content of the steels used. In these swords its not so much the steel used but more importantly the blade geometry and fittings that should be considered. Here's something straight from Hanwei to read regarding the geometry of the blades you listed: www.cashanwei.com/resources.aspx?node=305That is more important than the slight differences in steel used in each blade. I can tell you that when it comes to these swords there is a very slim chance (almost none really) that the sword will break, bend or twist because of the steel or the forging of the blade. I can say from personal experience that while there is a very small margin of error in the swords defective swords are very rare from Hanwei and they tend to take care of these issues quickly. Now about steel - many people tend to get hung up over different steel types. They'll say things like well I'll get sword X by company X because its made of steel xxxx and I heard that was a good steel. At the same time they'll say "I won't get sword y by company y because its only made of steel xxxy" and I heard that's not a very good steel. Well I'll say this - if I had the money to blow and I was offered a bare blade by Howard Clark made out of 1045 steel for $2500 or a fully polished and mounted blade by Munetoshi made out of T-10 or 1095 steel for $1000 I'd go for the Howard Clark. Even though its over double the cost and made out of a lower carbon content steel I know that the quality of the blade is better than what I'd find in a Munetoshi. Yes the steel will be marginally softer than in the Munetoshi but frankly I don't cut enough for that to really matter. I'd be more concerned with the quality of the blade's forging process and heat treatment than the type of steel used. As a side note Howard Clark not only uses L6 for his swords but also uses 1085 steel on a very frequent basis. Why not 1095 or T-10 etc? Well that's something you's have to ask him but I'd go for one of his 1085 steel blades over production run 1095, T-10, 5160 etc. blades any day if I could afford it. In short: Don't get hung up on steel type. Its only part of the formula that goes into a good modern sword. |
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Apr 16, 2011 22:57:25 GMT
how about the hanwei PXL Light, ive seen people constantly do silent cuts on empty bottles...THATS sharp.
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Post by Grindhouse on Apr 17, 2011 1:37:18 GMT
I'm still lost and i'm sure what i should buy :/ None of the katana available seem to satisfy what im looking for.... anyway, for the moment the list of katana im considering is reduced to 4-5 blades... Kaze (not sure about how sharpen it will come...... some ppl said it was not very sharp....) Hanwei practical plus elite (apparently brittle, even on plastic bottle) Hanwei Raptor Shinogi Zukuri Katana (no real hamon) They all have some posotive and negative points, hard to choose between them, none of them have the perfect combination of shaprness/goood finish and looking/resistent/solidity. And i don't want to spend like 300$ for a blade i will not like :/ So, maybe i should go for something better, but more costly.... Im thinking that instead of paying 250$ for a blade i wont be 100% satisfied with, i should throw 379$ for a better blade i will really like.... I saw a hanwei bamboo MAT on this site for 379$ www.iloveswords.com/ORJ_CH705.html ......... price seem pretty good to me, considering it's 479$ on kultofathena.... Does anone know this site ? is it reliable ? |
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Post by ChrisRiley93 on Apr 17, 2011 4:27:23 GMT
I will make this VERY SIMPLE for you. If you want a very strong blade that is very resistant to chipping, sharper than a razor out of the box, looks good and is an excellent cutter, then get the Practical Plus Elite Katana. It is as strong as ANY Cheness, much sharper, and in my opinion, looks much better. Not to mention the fittings are of a much higher quality than Cheness.
And before anybody calls me an inexperienced dumbass kid, keep this in mind; I have had 7 functional katana. Two of them were Cheness, One of them was a Chris Zhou Musashi, One was a Dynasty Forge, One was a Masahiro, One was a very good no brand shirasaya-like katana, and one was the Hanwei Practical Plus Elite Katana. Out of all of them, the PPEK was the much better sword by far.
BTW, the swords I just listed aren't the only swords I have ever had, they are just the katana. Out of all of the other swords I have ever had, the PPEK was the better sword out of them, too.
PS, from my understanding, paying out the extra dough for the Bamboo Mat Katana is well worth it.
PPS, the steel on the Practical Plus Elite Katana is 1095.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Apr 17, 2011 14:23:46 GMT
It seems to me you're getting stuck on what is an exception and not the norm for the Practical Plus Elite. Aside from that despite not having a hamon the Raptor series of swords are quite exceptional for the money. Given the choice between the Cheness and the Raptor I'd go with a Raptor any day. Given the choice between the Cheness and the Practical Plus Elite I'd go with the Practical Plus Elite. Given the choice of all three well I'd go with the Practical Plus Elite.
I'll echo what ChrisRiley said - to an extent. The PPE has out performed any other katana that I've handled in its price range. In cutting ability I haven't handled another katana within its price range that beats the PPE. Its blade geometry makes it cut like a laser in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. Fitting wise its way (and I mean WAAAY) above the quality of Cheness. Durability wise I've not had one chip or break on me and I've cut bamboo and live saplings with a PPE for abuse testing. I have not tried to cut bricks or steel but well I don't believe one should be testing that anyway. For hard targets that the sword was meant to cut it handles them well. Just remember that this is a sword - not an axe, sledgehammer, club or machete.
As for the Bamboo Mat - $379 is a phenomenal price! Buy it now if you have the money!
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Post by Grindhouse on Apr 17, 2011 14:42:24 GMT
Alright, thx a lot your help and feedback guys it's appreciated  I decided to buy the Hanwei Bamboo MAT for 379$. It's bought but i might have to change my decision depending on the shipping cost to Canada and the shipping company the seller deal with. USPS via post Canada doesn't charge custom fees, but UPS normally does... (i'm waiting for an email from the seller) If it end up being to expensive, my choice will be the Hanwei practical plus elite PS : btw, does anyone know if the Bamboo MAT is as sharp as a PPEK ? |
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Post by ChrisRiley93 on Apr 17, 2011 22:38:27 GMT
From my understanding they should both be equally sharp.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Apr 18, 2011 0:04:28 GMT
Yeah they should both be "Hanwei Sharp". lol
Anyway when referring to sharpness please remember geometry. Just because a sword isn't paper cutting sharp doesn't mean it won't cut bottles, tatami and of course flesh.
In any case aside from it being prohibitively expensive to ship the sword to you I think once you have it in your hands you'll be happy you got it.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 18, 2011 0:58:20 GMT
Hanwei has a pretty good rep sharpness-wise on their katanas and other Asian swords, not so much their Euros.
Sharpness isn't everything though, Windlass Steelcrafts makes some fairly blunt blades that can cut milk jars in a unsharpened state. Of course, milk jars aren't very hard targets... sharpness is one area where there's a fair amount of debate about how sharp is right...
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Post by Lobster Hunter on Apr 18, 2011 22:01:29 GMT
I've noticed that Hanwei will peen the nakago ana (opening for the tang) of the tsuba to insure a tight lateral fit. Cheness doesn't, so over time, the tsuba tends to loosen. A little metallic shim (like a copper sheet) fixes it pretty easily though.
The Hanwei Practical Plus Elite, if it's anything like my Practical Plus XL Light, is a VERY high quality sword. The one thing you might consider is that the Elite blade geometry is still a bit wider than average. If this is a turn off, just a plain ol' Practical Plus might be the way to go. Wicked sharp blade, nimble balance... if you don't like the synthetic leather ito, you can eventually get it re-wrapped later.
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Herron's Flight by Brendan of Fable Blades
