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Post by Kilted Cossack on Apr 14, 2011 2:20:51 GMT
Gents:
Slowly, slowly, ever so slowly, I am beginning to learn things about swords. I'm getting a better feel for how they were made, how they were used, and what goes into their essence.
One of the things I'm still a little vague on is the thumb ring. These seem to have come about, or to have gained popularity, with the general trend towards more complex guards in, what, the 16th century? I think of them on schiavonii, and Hungarian/Polish style sabers, and to a lesser extent on cavalry swords of the 16th century on. But I really don't know anything about them.
Could anyone share their experiences with thumb rings, either of steel or leather? (For some reason I have an image of a leather loop serving as a thumb ring, but honestly I could have just made that up.) It seems to me that a stop for the thumb would enhance leverage, and make for a livelier sword, but "seems to me" has covered a wide variety of stupid mistakes in the past.
Hook a brother up?
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Apr 14, 2011 2:36:02 GMT
I'd be interested in finding out their purpose as well, since the only use I could think up for the steel ones is thumb protection, but upon saying it out loud, it sounds kinda dumb. Maybe Dave knows?
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Apr 14, 2011 3:11:06 GMT
Yeah I'm pretty much waiting for Dave Kelly to show up.
Although this is all book-larnin' and speculation, I can see the thumb rings---if properly placed---functioning like the modern ergonomic grips used in fencing. Two pounds eight isn't always two pounds eight----when I replaced the blade of a Cold Steel Scottish Basket Hilt broadsword (phew) with a blade from a H/T EMSHS, the POB remained the same, with a wooden pommel fitted to the EMSHS.
I think leverage has a lot to do with it-----but once more, I'm just speculatin' here.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Apr 14, 2011 3:24:49 GMT
That could be. It could also be something to help keep it in the hand, since I remember watching the CS Saber & Cutlass fencing excerpts on Youtube and in the first part, Anthony DeLongis mentions a 3/4 wrap grip, wherein with a thumb ring, the thumb would be right in the ring; I remember trying it with a waster and thinking about how easily it could fall out of my hand. But again, just a bunch'a speculating here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 4:16:43 GMT
Historians think the thumb ring was originally implemented to reduce sword loss in calvary-style swords, although they make a very early appearance in non-calvary arms. It is likely that swordsmen discovered that performing a outside moulinet felt more secure with a thumb ring. When performing an outside moulinet from the wrist, the grip needs to be slightly loosened. The presence of a thumb ring may help bring the edge back on line with greater ease. The lack of popularity of this feature is evident from the number of surviving examples with the ring ground off.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 14, 2011 13:35:00 GMT
Like Dodger says, it wasn't all that popular. The main thing the thumb ring does is that it locks your hand into a cutting posture, to take the fullest advantage of a saber's blade. You can't thrust with your thumb in the ring, or at least not very easily, because then you have to bend your wrist too much.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Apr 14, 2011 14:02:41 GMT
Youtube user Lindybeige makes a fair point similar to that in his point about sabers. He also points out a way you could potentially thrust with a thumb ring, at least to my mind. |
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Post by MOK on Apr 14, 2011 14:50:50 GMT
Yeah, the main thing a thumb ring does is give a more secure grip. It can also lend a little bit of extra leverage in certain motions. The drawbacks are that it forces you into a certain way of gripping the sword, and makes actually grabbing it a little trickier and slower since you can't just wrap your fingers around the grip like usual, but also have to insert your thumb into the ring. Most active soldiers, being some of the most pragmatic and convenience-oriented demographics around, seem to have thought the cons outweighed the pros; military sword designers, however, kept at it well into the 20th Century, evidenced by the leather finger loops on some World Wars era sabers.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Apr 14, 2011 14:59:16 GMT
I think that'd be true for anything, really. It'd be like the tiny little thumb-hole that's shown in game on the Halo assault rifle or the hand-hole on the Gears of War lancer; especially the lancer, considering there's a freaking chainsaw awaiting if you screw up. Keep something like that in mind and it wouldn't be hard to see why soldiers wouldn't like 'em, although the leather ones wouldn't be so bad since you could use them if you wanted and push 'em out of the way if you didn't (unless they were stiffened leather).
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 14, 2011 20:51:38 GMT
The hardened thumb ring was actively used from 1560-1740 on a variety of swords. My Cervenka mounted saxon hilt is the earliest one I'm familiar with. The "walloon" uses it. See it on a lot of eastern sabres and pallasch. Primarily it locks the grip to aid in maintaing edge alignment in the cut. As mentioned by others it has the drawback of taking away the most direct and comfortable line of attack for the point; that is what caused the ultimate abandonment of the thumbring.  I probably shouldn't have picked this pic now that I see it, as it's an example of "defeating" the thumbring. I have my index finger over the quillon and am only resting my thumb on the ring, rather than locking into it. Proper school use I'd have my all my fingers on the lower guard and the thumb gripped in the ring. Below is one of Craig Johnsons pics for his French Royal Army infantry walloon. The blade is 31 inches. Asked Craig about getting one with a 36 inch cavalry blade. Said no problem, but the hilt detail pushes the final product to about $2300 and I don't remember if the scabbard was in that quote or not. Hard decision. I have seen historic walloons at 3K. www.armor.com/view.html?custom950c.jpgThe use of the leather finger strap, forwards and under the grip, appears early in the 19th Century in southern germany and then in many solingen applications. It appears to be an alternative solution to use of the sword knot. As mentioned this application is primarily a restraint to prevent loss of the weapon, is somewhat cumbersome to engage, subject to rot and not easily replaced on most weapons.  |
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