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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2007 17:41:37 GMT
Okay, I cannot stand it any longer. There is forging equipment over at my grandmothers farm. I want to try to forge a blade for a katana. Questions- Where to get steel. Can one just visit a scrapyard and buy steel and shape it up? I would think that you would want to forge it, but I'm guessing that any scrap would have been heat treated already, so it would be more of a grind and polish than a forge, correct? I have heard of using spring steel from old truck springs, can you do this? And what about pattern welding spring steel? This seems to me to be the ideal, to get spring steel and then fold it, to give a durable and pretty blade. I am not talking about making a Cheness grade cutter, but something that I can cut bottles/ light mats with. I have heard that forging cable can be done as well. Can you vets point me in the right direction to resources/methods and where to get materials cheap. If I can find something cost effective, I will try more times without getting discouraged so easily.
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slav
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Post by slav on Oct 31, 2007 19:38:25 GMT
The best, cheapest place to get good quality blade steel, guaranteed, is www.admiralsteel.comThey have a huge selection of high carbon steels. Personally I would use 1095, 1086, W-2 (tool steel) or something along those lines. They have sent me a 6 FOOT LONG 1-1/4"x 1/4" bar of annealed 1095 for around $30 (including shipping). Are you planning on actually forging a blade (with a hammer)? Or just doing stock-removal (with grinders and files), and then using the forge for the quench? do some reading and research (about the steels, and the process) before starting. www.engnath.com is a great resource. It explains the different types of steel, how they work, and what to use them for. It also explains clay-quenching, tempering, and polishing. good luck!
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slav
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Post by slav on Oct 31, 2007 19:43:36 GMT
P.S. If I were you, I'd buy a long bar stock of 1095, and start out making a couple monosteel tantos (either forging or stock-removal). So you can get a feel of how the steel works, how to quench, etc. There is always the risk of cracking or warping a blade, and the only way to avoid it is PRACTICE. Let yourself settle in, before trying to tackle a katana! Here is a simple crash-course in forging a Katana: www.waltersorrells.com/blades/katana%20forging.htmand Folding: www.waltersorrells.com/blades/forge%20welding.htmJust to give you an idea of what's involved. When you decide to start your katana, you may wish to keep it momosteel, or you might feel comfortable enough to try forge-folding. Again, I encourage you to do deeper research on your own!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 0:53:06 GMT
Thanks Slav, Yes, forging. And yes I know that there will probably be much trial and error. It is a good old setup, with the forge and an old bellows(rotten) an anvil close by(huge) and all of the tongs and hammers scatterd around. They used to use it to forge horseshoes and tools, back when men and animals used to do most of the work that is done by machines now. Thanks for the information. I will pm you occasionally to ask your advice possibly, if that is okay.
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slav
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Post by slav on Nov 1, 2007 1:47:18 GMT
Thanks Slav, Yes, forging. And yes I know that there will probably be much trial and error. It is a good old setup, with the forge and an old bellows(rotten) an anvil close by(huge) and all of the tongs and hammers scatterd around. They used to use it to forge horseshoes and tools, back when men and animals used to do most of the work that is done by machines now. Thanks for the information. I will pm you occasionally to ask your advice possibly, if that is okay. Sure thing. I don' have all the answers...but I've been where you are. Here is one of my first projects that actually turned out: /index.cgi?board=swordmaking&action=display&thread=1191736552
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 2:24:18 GMT
Okay, I cannot stand it any longer. There is forging equipment over at my grandmothers farm. I want to try to forge a blade for a katana. Questions- Where to get steel. Can one just visit a scrapyard and buy steel and shape it up? I would think that you would want to forge it, but I'm guessing that any scrap would have been heat treated already, so it would be more of a grind and polish than a forge, correct? I have heard of using spring steel from old truck springs, can you do this? And what about pattern welding spring steel? This seems to me to be the ideal, to get spring steel and then fold it, to give a durable and pretty blade. I am not talking about making a Cheness grade cutter, but something that I can cut bottles/ light mats with. I have heard that forging cable can be done as well. Can you vets point me in the right direction to resources/methods and where to get materials cheap. If I can find something cost effective, I will try more times without getting discouraged so easily. OK, slow down. Have you ever had any forging expeirience EVER? if not then don;t even try to forge a sword yet, you will waste both material, time, and alot of other things. try making tanto at first, when you have made about 50 good ones you will be ready to ATTEMPT a sword. DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT FOLDING OR FORGE WELDING OR CABLE, no way you wouldn't stand a chance. YOU MUST learn to crawl before walking, walk before running, run before flying. There is no reason to fold spring steel, it is good already and DOESN"T make it tougher or stronger or harder or ANYTHING other than less carbon, and a neat looking little pattern on the blade. No offense but alot of things from your post show you really know not much about swords, or sword making in general. IF and only if you are 100% serious and dedicated, you will be able to pull this off. I won't BS yah, and will give you the truth. Things you will need to get started are, what you seemigly already have, anvil, forge, hammers tongs. WHAT you now need is the actual skills to use them. Then the process goes, forge your flat bar into the point, tang, then form your edge bevels, then clean up the lines and straghten everything out. Rough grind and clean it all up, then apply your clay. Heat your whole blade evenly up to 1500 F, making sure it is as perfectly even along the whole legnth of the blade, then quench it in water or for most spring steels warm oil. Temper in your oven at 400 for two hours, then sowly and patiently grind the rest without overheating it, if you do overheat you will have to reheat treat the whole blade again. Once it has been cleaned up after heat treat, then you will begin to polish. Once it has been polished you have to find or make all the parts for it, fittings, sageo habaki, have them put on or attempt so yourself which is in itself a seperate craft. Carve out your scabbard and bam, done. That is just a simplified version of just what you have to do, it is in no way as simple as it sounds. Still willing to do it? Start with tanto, make a bunch, one at a time start to finish. Do not start a new one until you have finished another completely. Once you have made about 20 or 30, you might be ready to tackle a larger blade. There is more to making a sword than just "oh, i will forge it out, then grind it then heat treat it then mount it", not that easy. Your best bet is to do what brenno did, and grind one out from barstock, send it out for heat treat then attempt to make th efittings and stuff. The learning curve for forging takes real dedication, skill and perceverance, and if you are self teaching or practicing from books, A LONG TIME. Your other bet would be to look up blacksmiths in your area and see if you can visit they're shop and talk with them about a project like this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 2:28:50 GMT
While this may sound a bit harsh, it is not meant to. I am just trying to get across the point that it takes ALOT to learn to forge, not just the equipment and materials. You are looking at YEARS of work, not just a lazy weekend. I am a fulltime blacksmith bladesmith knifemaker, and know firsthand. I have been at it for 7 years and fulltime for 2.
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slav
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Post by slav on Nov 1, 2007 2:53:46 GMT
While Sam is right, he does sound a bit harsh. He makes it sound like bladesmithing is a 100% unique art form that has nothing in common with any other skills you might already have.
This is only true if you are some suburban city-kid who has never pounded a nail with a hammer, let alone hot steel, doesn't know the difference between a single and cross-cut file, and now wants to try making a kewl looking sword. Maybe that's how Sam was when he started out, who knows?
But if you know anything about anything, and have used your tools and your brain before, then there is no reason that you cannot pull off a sword. Just prepare to be disappointed when something goes wrong or turns out horribly. Because it will. But those types of events are the VERY BEST learning experiences. And you cannot get that type of learning experience if you dont TRY IT.
Maybe you want to remind Sam that you don't intend to pursue this as your livelihood, but as something to try, and fail, and try again, and fail again. If ya like it enough, you'll eventually try and succeed. If ya don't, well at least you learned something.
That said, get all the guidance you can. And, yes, tantos first!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 3:37:37 GMT
While Sam is right, he does sound a bit harsh. He makes it sound like bladesmithing is a 100% unique art form that has nothing in common with any other skills you might already have. I'd have to say that bladesmithing is a pretty unique skill. I think Sam was just telling him to take his time on it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 3:48:06 GMT
I have always been hands on, had alot of practical hand tool expeirience. I had to start out self taught for smithing, and while it was enlightening at that rate it woulda been forever until anything that is properly made with good geometry and proper heat treat would have been done. I never said don;t try it, by all means you want to make a sword try and make one it is an amzing and fun process! But like you said prepared to be dissapointed with a useless bar of steel. Slavia, there are long and short sharpened bars of steel, and there are knives and swords. KNowing the difference is key. So yeah he could forge out basically a SLO, would be real nice and shiny, as could just about anyone, but forging a sword is different. I help and teach to make swords, swords which will cut like lasers, feel light as feathers, balance properly. Not just a sword shaped bar of steel that might be able to cut, and yeah is nice and shiny and might look good and cool. Heck i can make those about 10 a day. But a proper REAL sword, one you pick up and it practically leaps into your hand, and feels like God himself made it to fit your hand perfectly? You are damn right that is 100% art form, that is as far away from pounding nails as a floppy salami is from a sledgehammer.
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slav
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Post by slav on Nov 1, 2007 4:18:16 GMT
But of course, Sam, you're right on! There's no better feeling than holding a deadly piece of art that took years of practice and months of labor to birth! That's why we love the things!
Mind you, I'd rather start out creating sharpened bars of steel, and learning how to evolve them into lazers, than start out wishing I knew how to build a lazer from scratch.
vafarmer, wish in one hand and crap in the other. See which hand fills up first.
...Then take that hand, wash it, and take 'hold of a nice 4 pound hammer. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 12:10:22 GMT
Thanks for the good advice guys. I always try to read each post twice, so I do feel like Sam was just being"to-the-point". Here is my situation. I do want to start making, and this will be spare time projects, so it will be more like a labor of love. I certainly would not start trying to crank out swords and knives hand over fist. I would like to be able to forge my own, for special ones, and yes Sam, I do want it functional, you are right. I want it mine alone. I would also like to be able to make tants(no, not TAINTS) and occasionally give them as gifts to my sons, dad, close buds, etc. I do know a little about metal, but very little. Slav is right, I know how to machine parts(unfortunately, you have to do this for older tractors sometimes) and I can weld, grind, cut efficiently. I just have no heating experience past heating something to bend it back into shape or get a rusted bolt free. I guess that I will replace the bellows with some type of compressor fed air on low pressure. I think where the biggest learning curve for me will be when the steel is hot enough, you know? Yes, I agree, starting on knife blades will be square one. AFTER the tantos become semi-predictable, I was wondering about steel sources for kat blades, etc. Do I need to ask for any type, ie if I want to make a 1060 or spring steel blade, can I use scrap type stuff and re-heat? or do I need to order. Slav, you can relate to this, on a farm, you will have lots of high carbon stuff just sitting around scrap. Gears, for example. Can this stuff be re-used? For knives or swords? How about leaf springs? I understand that I may want to start with quality stuff, but later on. Slav, you and I must have had the same bloodlines. If I had a nickel for every time my dad to me the "wish and crap" line, I'd be able to have my own swordsmith shipped over to work for me. How come the crap hand always gets full first?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Nov 1, 2007 13:01:48 GMT
I'm no black smith but hey, this is an open forum. It's my understanding that a leaf spring will be fine, but being already hardened it will be harder to work, and need re-heat treating and tempering after grinding due to the heat generated. Or would you melt it down and forge it?
However I expect the steel in a 40 year old spring to be nowhere near the standard of steel they make today.
For my sword making I have a suspension manufacturer 60km away that I have been able to buy the annealed spring steel (9258) very cheap (1 metre $12). They also heat treat and temper it for only about $15.
I'm lucky to have that I guess. Being on a farm I expect you may be a long way from the city. Doh!
Good luck with your projects.
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slav
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Post by slav on Nov 1, 2007 13:04:43 GMT
Well I'm not off an actual farm, just an acreage. But my grandfather has a shop with all kinds of stuff laying around from his projects over the years. As long as your scrap metal is high-carbon, it could be used for blades. Old files are great, and railroad steel is some of the hardest around. I've even heard of motorcycle chains being used for damascus unlike anything I've vever seen: (cycle-chain damascus) But still, the most assured way to get the right kind of good, workable, foolproof steel would be a place/website like Admiral. And as far as bloodlines go, i'm living in E. Kentucky right now (2 hour drive from Va.), but I'm originally from Canada. But it sounds like our backgrounds have at least a bit in common.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 14:34:10 GMT
Suuuuhhhh-wheeat! Could you see a kat forged out of that? Maybe with a scrimshaw type of handle? what about tools? I have an old breaker bar that would make a great waki. Don't you have to get really high temp to melt that stuff down, though? I will do more research on my own. thanks for all the posts
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slav
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Post by slav on Nov 1, 2007 17:31:17 GMT
Any way you look at it, you would first have to anneal (un-harden) any metal that you find laying around. Different tools are made of different quality tool steel, so you really can't judge how good the steel is unless you know what kind/quality of steel it is. So you'll have to find that out. I don't know off had what tools are good, just what steels. Maybe Sam can help... Do some research about what steels are used for what tools, etc...You can start at that www.engnath.com website under "steels" to find out more.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 22:35:11 GMT
[quote author=brenno board=swordmaking thread=1193852497 post=1193922108 Or would you melt it down and forge it?
However I expect the steel in a 40 year old spring to be nowhere near the standard of steel they make today.[/quote]
Brenno, i just have to fix what you said here:). Melt it down and forge it? It doesn't work that way, you never melt a steel to forge it, only heat it up and unless you are making damascus, which is also never melted, you never even go near the metling temperature. Also contrary to what you would think logically, the olderleaf springs are much better(5160) than the modern ones despite some sword companies using them. But alot of modern springs are not really worth it to make blades from, the rule of thumb is the older the better.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 2, 2007 13:54:34 GMT
I think you'd need all the good luck in the world for that to work first time. But please try by all means.
I'd sooner make swords a la Brenno. It sounds easier. Easy enough for a mug like me to do. Of course it would be fun to play with a forge, but I'd probably just burn myself, or pound my nice bar of steel into a flat plate resembling a cowpat.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 14:29:52 GMT
So Brenno, Are you cutting these out of spring steel, and if so, what method is used to harden it after the cutting? Yes, I still want to forge, because I would like to get to the point eventually to fold a blade. Maybe one day try to forge out some cable, I just like the patterns, but cannot bring myself to pay good money for something that I would feel uncomfortable using to cut.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 2, 2007 16:22:52 GMT
Brenno sends it off to a heat treating specialist. Its just more reliable than doing it yourself when you don't know how.
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