Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 23, 2011 16:32:17 GMT
![](http://www.to-ken.com/articles/ArticlePictures/Surren14.jpg) "Piles of swords ready for destruction in Osaka (1945 / 46)" I was randomly searching the internet and came across this. Even tho I'm not a big eastern, I still got a little misty eyed when I saw this literal pile of swords, awaiting destruction... Here's the whole article: www.to-ken.com/articles/Surrenderceremonies.htmThe article was a good read. From what I understand ALL swords in Japan, even the ones in shrines, were collected and destroyed. So, who wants to build a time machine with me so we can go back in time with a duffel bag and scoop up as many of tho's swords as possible?
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Post by whitefeathers on Mar 23, 2011 17:27:42 GMT
that made me sad
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Post by Hiroshi on Mar 23, 2011 18:40:22 GMT
I sick... I literally feel sick.
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 23, 2011 19:54:53 GMT
Yes- that is how I feel as well. Such foolishness, arrogance and shortsightedness
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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 23, 2011 20:43:26 GMT
To comment upon a detail of the picture itself; that katana the officer's holding appears to be quite wide at the base of the blade, and is fairly long to boot? It certainly seems to be an atypical piece.
This is one of the lesser-known but no less bitter historical tragedies of wartime-- the destruction of history. The line of thought, as I recall, was that Japanese reverence for their 'warrior culture' led towards their aggression in the 1930's and Pearl Harbor; ergo, as part of their 'warrior culture', take all their weapons away... even swords. It didn't help that Japan was one of the last countries to have soldiers actively using swords in battle and as ceremonial execution weapons; many Allied POW's died by a gunto.
It's a honest shame, though, because for the greatest part all this was so unnecessary. A Japanese would probably never think about actually taking an antique nihonto, never mind a sword given to a shrine, as a fighting weapon. There's a reason they forged MANY brand-new gunto instead of remounting older swords; they respected their antique weapons too much to do that.
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Post by 6stringseme on Mar 23, 2011 21:51:51 GMT
Actually, many ancestral and antique family blades were put into gunto mounts and carried in WW2. It would probably be considered a great honor to carry one of these into battle.
Sadly, that probably means that a fair number of the blades you see in that pic that were melted down, were indeed antique, priceless nihonto... :cry:
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 23, 2011 22:06:59 GMT
Mr. Sinclaire states " Although I have no precise details, I am assured that none are off absolute top quality." but I think it's not entirely true. wish I could check through them to find out
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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 23, 2011 23:36:34 GMT
6stringme: I don't deny that this happened, probably pretty often. However, the gunto as issued was usually a mass-produced blade. Mounting older blades was done on an individual basis.
This is just my understanding, though, and if it was a more common thing than this please feel free to inform me... either way, this event was one of the nastier things the US did in their occupation of Japan, from a cultural and historical perspective if nothing else. They basically almost eradicated a massive, valuable chunk of katana history from the books. To put it in a similar light, it's as if we had several hundred thousand medieval swords that were at one time the property of families (ancestral heirlooms), museums, and churches, and then someone swept them all up and destroyed them. That's the kind of loss that Japan suffered, but it didn't happen that way because unlike in Europe, swords were prized and preserved for centuries there. And then this happens... I'll leave it at that.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 24, 2011 1:06:13 GMT
Not all the katana destroyed were gunto. The confiscation and destruction of swords after World War II was arbitrary. The confiscation applied to civilian ownership of katana as well. People literally had to hide their family heirloom from the Allied Occupation Forces.
Forging new katana was forbiden as well. The Allied Forces also making it illegal to practice any martial arts --- whether it is judo, kendo, iaido...ect. It was not allowed again until the 50s.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 24, 2011 1:13:24 GMT
Actually Elheru, I'm gonna have to advocate that we did Japan a favor.
Think about it. This was a HUGE slap in the face to let go of the past and start playing nice with the rest of the world. If I'm not mistaken, we actualy helped them start up various electronics factories so they could start producing tho's little crystal radios that kids of the 1950's would play with. This put Japan on the tip of the diving board to be a world leader in electronics for at LEAST the next centry.
They now had the means to compete in a global market which in turn put money into the country that allowed them to improve their infrastructure, medicine, construction, etc. Think, if we would have just bombed several thousand people and then said "That'll teach you!" and left, then there is no telling how many more dead there would be right now because of the earthquake.
If we hadn't taken the warrior out of their culture, I would say that Japan would be very similar to modern day Saudi Arabia as far as social advancement goes.
Yes, I agree, I would rather that the blades were confiscated and auctioned off back in the states. Then we'd be swimming in them I'd wager. At least that way a relic of history would be preserved.
As far as the Europe stance. I'd say that swords were prized FAR more in Japan then they were in Europe. The Japanese had the whole "Part of your soul is in your blade" thing going on. They kept them and valued them, etc etc. As far as Europe goes, back in the 1950's you could buy ACTUAL medieval artifacts for about $20 or so. It wasn't until... Hrm... was it the 80's? I think it was the 80's, I'll have to check. Anyway, it wasn't until Oakeshott started looking at these swords as more then just rusty pieces of metal, that the public started taking a greater interest in them.
I'll go ahead and admit that all the information in this post is from memory. I've probably screwed up a few dates, but the overall gist is there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2011 1:25:58 GMT
This even made my bow and arrow loving girlfriend sad. I'm all for the time machine. Hell i feel bad even destroying SLOs >.> (yeah i have my very first SLO still...)
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Post by birdman on Mar 24, 2011 1:27:03 GMT
The Edo period long wakizashi I have was captured on one of the Pacific islands, according to the previous owner, who bought it from an old marine who brought it home from the war.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2011 2:17:38 GMT
Sadly, I recall a great deal of hatred, bitterness and even bigotry being associated with war trophies that several of my uncles that were lucky enough to have returned alive from the Pacific campaign with. Otherwise good men being consumed with ignorance and hatred over a small reminder of a terrible situation was heartbreaking. I once questioned why these pieces were kept around as reminders of the past during a family function when I was a child and everyone fell silent and switched subjects, I suppose it was simply a matter of personal connection with the objects, situations and memories that haunted them until their deaths. My cousins eventually inherited these pieces of history and they have long since been sold or destroyed and lost to time.
These beautiful object were often abused and left to rust on purpose, the guns were converted in to sporter use or they were experimented upon until they were ruined. These men knew full well the consequences of not maintaining such a possession.
It is indeed very sad to see such nonsense being carried out on a massive scale even today in Astan and Iraq.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2011 5:26:34 GMT
Yeah, it's a real shame about these swords, but please keep in mind that it doesn't really compare to the millions of lives lost in the war. It's sad how these swords were treated, but sadder to think that humans lives were treated with even less respect during the war.
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Post by masahiro560 on Mar 24, 2011 11:43:18 GMT
The swords that were once feared by the people of the colonies of japan back in the war... lay lifeless and dishonored in a pile ready to be melted into steel once more
These symbols of fear... It is a bit disheartening to know that something that had killed and beheaded so many people Could be dishonored and be destroyed like this.....
Although my country was indeed colonized by the Dai Nippon Teikoku I'd still definitely want to have a gunto Although I did have my uncle who experienced the war (and seen many beheadings by the japanese with gunto) hold one, he promptly drew it from it's sheath looked at it and returned it to me promptly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2011 21:46:30 GMT
This hurts my heart deeply, very sad.
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Post by etiennehamel on Mar 25, 2011 20:36:08 GMT
this really hurts but something stroke my mind... what if some swords in this pile was national treasure? i heard there was a masamune piece (or maybe a few i don't remember) that was gone missing in japan...that's without mentionning oter potential national treasure...
makes me think about those guys as history piece thieves right now...
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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 26, 2011 16:43:58 GMT
There are a number of famous historical katana that have been missing since the war, yes. The Honjo (I think?) Masamune is probably the most famous and if it was found, it'd be around... oh, something like 20+ million dollars' value? Something ridiculous like that. But the most plausible explanation is that either a.) some soldier picked it up and went away with it, or b.) it went into the scrap-pile and got turned into one of the first Hondas.
This is, at least in regard to the museum-piece blades, not much different than occupying Greece and destroying the Parthenon, if you think about it... they basically eradicated valuable historical relics, and did so without a second thought about it.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 26, 2011 19:49:32 GMT
I probably misunderstood that but lemme ask anyway: Are you implying these swords should be honored because they have killed so many people? I actually think it's certainly not a bad thing to destroy symbols of fear, oppression and endless killing. Let's not forget that while swords, especially katana were and still are held in high regards, they are in no way better that any other weapon or tool inteded to kill humans. These wonderful pieces of art were used to strengthen a system of oppressive, brutal, completely inhuman and degrading thinking where a small minority of arrogant people legimimated by the idea of god-willed reign suppressed the vast majority to live a luxurious life, maltreating and killing the so called lower class people without ANY punishment nor feeling of guilt. That of course goes to Japan as well as for pretty much any country where swords (or other weapons) were used. Medieval Europe certainly wasn't better. No, katana nor any other sword or weapon deserve honour for what they were made for or used for. They deserve honour for what they are: masterly made steel objects that leave us in awe regarding the skill of those who once forged them. They may deserve honour for the ideal of chivalry and the fact that rarely they were actually used for a rightfull cause but lets face it: the vast majority of reasons swords were used were nothing but crimes.
So my personal opinion is: The loss of history and the loss of masterly made works of art is sad but to see the symbols of suppression of thousands of Japanese peasants over the last decades melted down is not a sad thing but a victory of freedom and the defeat of such horrible ideology where some people consider themselves to be more worth than other. And that's well worth the loss of valuable and beautiful works of art in my opinion.
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Post by Brindlethorpe on Mar 26, 2011 20:30:39 GMT
When I was in Japan I had a Japanese language professor who knew I was training in iaido. When I was visiting his home on one occasion, showed me a gorgeous matched daisho that had been in his wife's family for several hundred years (I don't know exactly how long, but they were quite proud that they were descended from the Heike clan). His wife's family had hidden it from the occupation forces after the war. He said he'd love to give it to me (I almost had a heart attack on the spot), but since it was not licensed he was afraid he'd get in trouble with the police. It was literally rusting in his attic storage space and I could not persuade him (despite passionate entreaties) to take it to someone who could at least try to salvage it. I still get knots in my stomach thinking about it.
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