|
Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 8, 2011 17:40:38 GMT
I am not an expert on sword history. Let me just get that out of the way. My objective with this thread is learning more about the general history of reproduction swords in the Western market.
The following is all as I understand it, so PLEASE, please, feel free to correct my misunderstandings/misstatements on dates and what not!
For a pretty good while Euro swords were pure crap. A very few makers did decent swords, mind-- Wilkinson Sword in England, Del Tin. Generally though swords were largely flea-market crap made in India, welded rat-tail tangs, cheap brass or pot-metal parts... you know the type, everybody’s seen or had one. CAS Iberia was kicking around for a while with cheap reproductions, too.
It's only been recently (starting in late 80s?) that good production swords started appearing in large numbers with the establishment of Arms and Armour, Windlass, Albion, and so forth. Gus Trim came out, too, but given that he has never been a high-volume producer, he's somewhat of an outlier overall. Other than A&A and Albion, who have pretty much always been the high end of sword making, Windlass and Deepeeka's products were... well, not that great either for the *most* part.
But in the 2000's (or so?) Arms of Valor, Generation2/Legacy, Valiant, etc, emerged as Internet retailers. Hanwei had been around in the repro-kat market for a while, but nothing much as far as their CAS Iberia Euro swords went, until they got together with Tinker in recent years and came out with the H/T's, which have become some of the better production blades out there.
With regard to katana, however, my understanding is that there have been more good katana on the market for longer than there have been good Euro swords. The great majority of Japanese shinken were destroyed at the end of WWII, which is why there aren't a whole lot of pre-WWII nihonto around (this is common knowledge though). After the occupation of Japan ended, production of shinken resumed at a very slow pace, making them quite expensive.
However, I understand that a good number of American soldiers took Japanese swords home with them, whether nihonto, shinken, gunto, or Chinese crap (been around forever). From that came a vague understanding that katana were “cool” and “exotic”, compared to Grandpa’s Civil War saber or whatever. There’s more on this in the other thread I’m posting, but that’s largely about a different subject; suffice it to say that there have been quality katana on the market for longer, as I understand it.
I think a lot of credit for the improvements in production swords in general can be given to the Internet, for allowing sword fans to communicate more easily and see what products were best. The Internet also allowed sword fans to communicate with the makers, to see the products available from custom smiths, and so forth.
Okay, I'll wind this up. Please, feel free to fill in the gaps in my knowledge or correct my mistakes, as I asked earlier. I look forward to discussing this and learning more…
|
|
SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
|
Post by SanMarc on Mar 8, 2011 21:19:22 GMT
Yes I remeber the pree Internet days, and there were a few of us that were into real swords and so forth, pretty much all were custom made, the best was made from a car or truck leaf spring, thank the Gods there are way more options now!!
|
|
|
Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 10, 2011 13:27:30 GMT
Now that's the kind of input I'm looking for! Thank you SanMarc... anybody else have comments?
|
|
|
Post by Curgan on Mar 10, 2011 14:00:39 GMT
In some areas like the Balkans one could find swords of poor blade construction but witg ornate fittings in places where "traditional" souvenirs were sold...
|
|
|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 11, 2011 16:52:06 GMT
The internet has been a huge, huge, insane monster benefit to niche communities and groups of every sort. If it's building dune buggies, collecting Gibson guitars, enthusiasm for steam engines, or reproduction swords, the internet allows people to find folks with similar interests, and also allows companies in these niche markets to correspondingly find these rare enthusiasts.
I wore a kilt for about three years, all the time. When my interest started to develop, I hit the ol' internets and tried to find out more. There were a couple of Celtic shops in Houston that carried kilts, but in mere moments I'd found a couple of different forums devoted to kilts, and discovered Bear Kilts up in Canada, a custom maker of modernized, poly-viscose kilts, and SportKilt, and USA Kilts, and, of course Utilikilts. It was dead simple for me to find not only vendors and manufacturers, but reviews of products, advice on sewing your won kilts, all kinds of great stuff. There were people on the forums not only from all over the US but from Europe, England and Scotland as well. And Ireland, and Japan, and Brazil.
I believe USA Kilts had set up as a primarily local Pennsylvania kilt shop, but by working the internet, finding the enthusiasts, targetting their niche market, they took off like a rocket. Their kilts are great: made to measure out of good Scotch wool, comfortable.
If it hadn't been for the kilting sites I'd have ended up with some crappy ol' acrylic off-the-rack kilt and never have gotten into the whole kilty thing. Similarly, if it wasn't for sites like SBG, I'd have ended up with some crappy SLO and said "This whole thing sucks" and just thrown my hands up and walked away.
|
|
|
Post by masahiro560 on Mar 11, 2011 17:01:32 GMT
ahh~ the old pre internet days I remember when I first held my first sword when I was 6 :oops: It was lying in the back of my older brother's cabinet, Heck it looked functional so I started practicing with using that sword until I could easily use it one handedly, that was around when I was 8 and continued using that sword on and on and on until I found out I can bend it easily with my hands :shock:
That was until I started looking for a new sword to replace my old sword, when I went to a small district selling CAT official's swords I saw a sword that looked exactly like mine... and whaddya know.. they sold for $8 each...
Old saber here is still my trusted self defense weapon (It's blunt) Then there were all those "beautiful" KLOs (Katana like objects) that lined the shops of another shopping district how beautiful they looked! Made me want to swing them and be like Himura Kenshin :oops: Samurai X (Rurouni kenshin) was very popular in my country way back
Even my teacher today is still using Samurai X references sometimes :lol:
My pre-internet days and swords
|
|
|
Post by MrAcheson on Mar 11, 2011 19:25:38 GMT
I'd argue that euro reproductions mostly sucked until the mid to late 1990s. When I stumbled on Swordforum in college (back when it was still mostly a Highlander fan board), the only two swordmakers considered halfway decent were Deltin and Arms&Armor. Of those Deltin was favored because they were significantly cheaper (Deltins are made in Italy and the dollar/euro exchange rate favored the dollar at the time). Deltin had geared the line mostly towards live steel reinactment since at least the early 90s. Their swords had decent balance and were strong, but most were 8 to 16 ounces too heavy in order to stand up to the rigors of getting smashed together all the time. Deltins showed up on Highlander every week and I think Christian Fletcher might have even customized them (although he mostly made armor back then). Around this time MRL dropped Deltin after being bought by Windlass. A lot of their early stock was basically Deltin copies with cosmetic features moved around. This is why the Classic Medieval looks like DT2130 with a round pommel instead of brazil-nut. But things were happening in the background during the late 90s. The big thing was the European sword arts were starting to take off. The first big books I remember were John Clements '97 and '98 Renaissance and Medieval swordsmanship books. Then he was working with the HACA, now called the ARMA. The growth of the internet allowed ESA niche groups to organize, grow, and interact. It got the good books publicity on sword boards. You could also buy them on Amazon.com because your local bookstore sure didn't carry them.
The growing ESA community wanted good cutting swords. This lead to the rediscovery to two different swordmaking concepts: distal taper and harmonic balance. Distal taper was known, but not really employed that much and let you lighten the sword without sacrificing performance. Harmonic balance made for a sword that was a comfortable cutter by placing the primary vibration nodes is the right places. Albion was founding '98 but didn't really get going as a manufacturer for a couple of years. Gus Trim swords were well received, but I'm not sure that he ever really set production records. Some of Albion's early stuff were Gus Trim blades I believe. But these were all middle end swords for the ESA market, not lower end swords in the SBG price point.
While ESA was taking off, the dotcom bubble burst and the dollar plummeted against the Euro. Deltin basically disappeared on the US market as the exchange rate switched from pro-dollar to pro-euro and destroyed their price advantage. Inexpensive swords on the US market were manufactured in countries with cheap labor where they could still make a profit like India, China, and the Philippines. Not in developed nations like Italy or even the Czech Republic.
Around 2002 Hanwei got into the European market in a big way. They'd built a good reputation on their Chinese-made katanas in the late 90s. Their practical line offered basic but good European swords for less than $100. That was wallhanger pricing at the time, but these swords were actually pretty good. People were really annoyed when they found out the edges were so thick on most Practicals that they weren't worth sharpening. You had to spend more for the sharps and still do. I believe Hanwei started marketing a lot of their stuff through CAS/Iberia around this time. Previously Iberia was a company with a big distribution base that sold wall-hangers and sword-like objects almost exclusively. In 2006, Hanwei bought Iberia outright.
Honestly, I think the combination of Hanwei and the higher end manufacturers like Albion put a lot of pressure on the whole market to improve through a combination of pricing and performance. Now we have a whole lot of custom and semi-custom smiths doing design work for the major manufacturers. Hanwei is putting out Tinker Pierce designs among others. Valiant is making Trim/Fletcher and soon Lundermo stuff.
|
|
|
Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 11, 2011 19:47:31 GMT
Awesome post, MrAcheson. That's exactly the kind of thing I want to hear more about! Have a karma on me...
Keep the posts coming, everybody. I want to hear individual inputs on how their personal situation was with swords, how they saw the growth of the Euro/general sword community happen...
|
|
|
Post by MrAcheson on Mar 11, 2011 21:48:35 GMT
I didn't really cover Japanese swords. Basically Hanwei revolutionized that too. Prior to the late 90s you couldn't buy a decent katana if you wanted one. If you could find one, it was probably all wrong. Flattened saber grinds instead of proper convex cross-sections, etc. I think that some of this stuff might still be archived at the old Sword Forum Magazine Online pages at Sword Forum. They had whole articles about how everything was wrong.
Paul Chen basically revolutionized it by bringing out properly differentially tempered katana at a reasonable price point in the mid to late 90s. When they first came out you were talking $1000-1500 for Bugei and $400-700 for his Musashi and Golden Oriole. Maybe it was 400 and change for the katana and 650-700 for a complete daisho. That's a lot of money, but it's sure cheaper than Nihonto or full custom. But the Hanwei early stuff had it's problems too. The edges tended to be brittle because the temper process hadn't quite been nailed down yet. Some blades were shipping with edges in the low to mid 60s RC instead of the high 50s.
Kris Cutlery was also importing a good katana back then as well. But it was very non-traditional. Their current product line has normal wrapped tsukas. Their late 90s line had 27 inch and 29 inch katana that looked like they came from a space opera. The metalwork was bright brass and the wood was glued and covered with a weird fabric wrap. They were good cutters, but some people went as far as stripping them down to the blades and having custom furniture built for them.
And those were your options, Chen or Kris. A year or two after the Musashi and Golden Oriole came out, Chen brought out the Practical Katana for an even cheaper price point. But to do it he cheapened the swords with plastic in some of the wrong places. The blade itself was quality but other fittings weren't. Not everybody was happy. Other practical katana variants came out following that as Hanwei tried to hit on the right market mix, but I think a lot of manufacturers smelled blood in the water.
The first manufacturer I remember really challenging Hanwei was the Last Legend series from Gen2. And they challenged, I remember pictures of them directly comparing their swords to Chen's. They offered stouter blades than Chen in two different sori with more options for the buyer to satisfy a wider variety of price points. Some of the JSA folks liked them or at least said they did. I pretty sure one guy who liked them the loudest was on their payroll.
After them I think everyone started pumping out katana in China. I can't even keep track anymore. Certain steels would get hot or not. Then everyone was talking about the Masahiro and Musashi sub-$100 blades that might not suck.
|
|
|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 11, 2011 22:38:12 GMT
This has gotten pretty awesome, and I hope that attention isn't unduly diverted to Elheru's other post. They're both good, full of good musings and info, but this one has some on its own.
|
|
|
Post by caferacer on Mar 12, 2011 19:26:10 GMT
I remember when the only thing you could find were decorative swords made in spain, and a few hand made ones at SCA events, usually not for sale, here are some picks of one I bought when I was around 12 years old sometime in the mid 1970's probably made from an old leaf spring, rather crude, the guard is carved out of a brass bar, the pommel is hollow, nice wire wrapped grip possibly from a spanish wall hanger, nice tang though and it will flex 90 degrees and return straight every time! (its been done hundreds of times) holds a decent edge it has never bent or chipped and I have cut thousands of bamboo stalks, branches, cardboard boxes, and more things than I can remember, it is the size of a nice riding sword 28 3/4" X 1 1/2" blade with nice distal taper, 35 1/2" total length, weight is just under 2LBS, cost me $30 (a large sum for a kid growing up in the ghetto in the mid 70's) I put a EMSHS blade next to it for comparison
|
|
|
Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 12, 2011 21:38:23 GMT
That's a pretty interesting sword, looks a lot like someone was inspired by the Excalibur movie.
I imagine that movie had quite an impression on a lot of people and there were probably a fair number of knockoff wall-hangers around the time... I know one old catalog that I looked through once, from Atlanta Cutlery I think, had a number of them, as well as a bunch of Spanish "El Cid" type swords. And of course, the usual "Barbarian" type swords, either the ones with the dragon hilt or cheap Conan knock-offs. There were so many wall-hangers back in the day, it's no wonder real Euros took such a long time to take off. Am I right with that comment?
|
|
|
Post by caferacer on Mar 12, 2011 22:54:37 GMT
it does look like the excaliber movie sword a bit, only the movie came out in 1981 and I got the sword in the early to mid 1970's, I never had much interest in fantasy or asian swords or anything overly decorative, even when looking through books or going to museum's, it always bugged me that they had so many pages or display space dedicated to things that were obviously not meant to be used, I wanted to see the real deal! something that was carried into battle! not some fancy engraved jewel encrusted ceremonial piece,
|
|
|
Post by Stromlo_Swords_USA on Mar 13, 2011 0:47:46 GMT
Hi Guys, For anyone interested I came on the Euro scene late and enjoyed reading both Spirit of the Sword (which is like this post expanded with stacks of pictures and a directory of custom makers) and only $16 www.amazon.com/gp/product/144021 ... d_i=507846 as well as Tinker's ebook which you can buy and download as a pdf to read straightaway whch also talks alot about these developments in the recent past and agan full of excellent pictures for only $10 see here tinkerswords.com/TinkrMakBukz.html I still think this tread is an excellent way of capturing peoples experiences though - 10 years ago I had just gotten my first SLO and thought wow, it's a real steel blade! I had no idea people were going to be sparring with live steel, and I thought a "real" sword would be $1000's right? Cheers, Rob
|
|