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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 8, 2011 7:59:26 GMT
Warning: The following is pure conjecture based on scant flimsy evidence. Actually there is no evidence. But I don't need no stinking evidence. It's a rumor. I make no promise of truthfulness. However, I promise that it is a juicy piece of gossip worth repeating.
It is crazy, but hear me out.
-In circa 2008, Tinker began his collaboration with Hanwei with his Hanwei Tinker Line. Beside giving Hanwei his sword designs, what did Tinker give Hanwei? His heat treatment formula, his mar-quenching formula.
-Circa 2009, the Raptor(s) were born, designed by Williams Sensei, however in 5160 steel through harden. Interesting! It is the first time Hanwei had a through harden katana. But the most intriguing question is the choice of steel. Why 5160 spring steel? Williams Sensei is a good swordsman and would be an ideal candidate in designing a katana. But he is not a bladesmith or metallurgist. 9260 is similar to 5160 in performance. It is readily available and far more common in China. Other forges have used 9260 steel in their through harden katana. Why 5160, a less common steel in the country?
-My hypothesis is that once Hanwei received the heat treatment method from Tinker. They started to apply it to their katana. Before Tinker, Hanwei probably did not know mar-quenching technique, which maximizes the steel performance. Even after Tinker, they did not know how to do it with 9260 steel. However, they know how do it with 5160, thank to Tinker.
-Maybe this is all coincidental. Or maybe Tinker is the real father of the Raptor. He, unknowingly, gave birth to the them.
-If my crazy and ludicrous hypothesis has any truth to it (and I guarantee no truth whatsoever). The Raptor blade must be phenomenon. You are getting a katana with Tinker heat treatment.
DISCLAIMER: Again, I claim no truth from the above statement. It was written purely for entertaining purpose, baseless fiction from an over-immaginative mind with nothing better to do. If people believe it, it is not my fault.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 8, 2011 8:41:24 GMT
Wow, I'm impressed! I'd buy it.
But let me ask you this:
How in the world did your brain start to formulate this? I'll grant you that my mind has gone off in random directions at times and I've come out with something totally unexpected, but had you been looking into the Raptor line while at the same time, reading about Tinker's association with Hanwei?
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 8, 2011 12:28:48 GMT
That's a crazy theory!
Of course, the older I get, the more I realize that craziness doesn't mean wrong, oh no, not at all. More like "unexpected." And, you know, if you learn something valuable for the business, why not apply it across the line? In a similar vein, I'm interested in hearing reports of some of the new Hanwei swords in pre-production. I'm wondering if they will show certain improvements over Hanwei's past runs, more attention to distal taper and harmonic balance.
On the one hand, I can understand why Hanwei would do it (i.e., producing a better sword, something we can all applaud!), and on the other hand, I can understand why guilds used to have secret techniques and strict rules about revealing them.
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SanMarc
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Post by SanMarc on Mar 8, 2011 21:04:39 GMT
And I'm sure that man himself will tell all! Of course they could be using it and just not saying for moola reasons....SanMarc.
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Post by Bogus on Mar 8, 2011 23:45:05 GMT
I heard from a friend of a friend that Paul slipped Tinker a roofie. Hey, you said it's the rumor mill. :twisted:
Anyway, is marquenching really that rare? I mean it could just as easily have been that 2007-2008 was when Hanwei realized they needed to step up their game due to competition from other manufacturers, and took a long look at both designers and methods.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 9, 2011 0:32:06 GMT
Of course, it is a rumor mill. You can write anything you want, as long as you have a disclaimer.
Anyhow, I once took my mom to a great restaurant. She fell in love with a particular dish there. My mom is a phenomenon cook. So she went home and tried to replicate the dish. It took her many many tries before she get it right. And the dish is pretty simple with few ingredients. The process is no secret ( in fact she said that it is obvious) and the ingredients are identifiable and common. But putting all those things together still require significant amount of experimentation.
So the analogy may apply here. Hanwei can probably figure out anything eventually. But that requires research and development, and testing. It all cost time and money. Marquenching is very common with Western smiths who made European swords. And the process is well documented. But if the factory has no experience doing it, it is a financial risk to devote resource into R&D. One can never know how long, how much effort, or how much resource are put into experimentation before one get it right. The return in investment may not worth the effort.
I alway question why Hanwei use 5160 steel in their Raptor. Then I started collecting European swords and did a little research on the history of the Hanwei Tinker Line. I went to Tinker Forum and found the date where Tinker first collaborated with Hanwei. Tinker stated that he gave them the heat treatment formula and it took them a few tries to get it right. Then I remember Keith Larman post on SFI about the Raptor when it first came out. I went and look at the date and it is approximately one year after the collaboration with Tinker.
Again, this is purely speculation without any evidence whatsoever. Correlation does not equal causation.
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Mar 9, 2011 21:08:41 GMT
gosh SoS! bringing conspiracy theories to the TABLE!  anyways when I was "researching" before I bought my Raptor, I came across Keith Larman's informal review posted in 2009 that you mentioned: "I had talked with James Williams I think about a year ago (2008) while I was there. He asked what I thought of an inexpensive user sword. I expressed that I thought the only viable means to put together a cost effective sword was to figure out ways to simplify construction across the board. That meant through hardened blade (consistent size, shape and sori), tough tool steel, simple finish and simple mounts. Nothing fancy. I did emphasize that safety *had* to be the distinguishing property. Because there are other inexpensive beaters on the market. However, the ones I've seen have been atrocious in terms of construction. And to me that simply is a non-starter. I can not comprehend how swords like that can even be sold -- that's just not right IMHO. And sword is *more* than the sum of the parts. A good blade in bad mounts is a dangerous thing. A bad blade in good mounts is a dangerous thing. That was about the end of my input to James. " - Keith Larman swordforum.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=95302I wouldn't doubt that Hanwei decided to use 5160 because they were already using them on HTs, rather than Tinker having any significant role in designating 5160 for the raptors. William Sensei looked like he was asking around for a lot of advice. More confusing ain't it? :twisted: |
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 9, 2011 21:31:34 GMT
lol, reading the rest of that post it sounds like he's trying hard not to say hmmmmmm it's ok for a piece of junk. or I've seen a lot of crap worse than those. well, if you had your hands on some of the swords he does, you'd probably be jaded as well.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Mar 17, 2011 19:45:41 GMT
oooooh now this is really interesting ,im liking the way you think on this topic student ,it very well may be coincidence, or hanwei decided to use tinkers heat treat and transfer it to the raptor line  so tinker may very well be the inspiration for the raptor steel type |
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Mar 17, 2011 21:12:16 GMT
hmmm i agree with you frank (with regards to his thoughts),after reading that post,luckily (for me at least) im a function over form guy (and a euro to boot) so the raptor line suits me perfectly (ok i admit a bamboo matt would be my ideal) i do seem to struggle with the higher end price of japanese blades (dont pounce too strongly you katana guys ) BUT, i do have trouble seeing the enormous cost differences in high end katana,yes theyre works of art,yes theyre differentialy hardened producing a slightly harder edge,yes the hamon on some are amazing to look at yes its argueable that more work is involved ,but at the end of the day ,its a sword ,and my a trim can (theroetically,we do this for fun not dismemberment) cut a person in half just as well as a high end katana (and no worries regarding poor edge alignement),ive gone all off topic now :? im withdrawing before i start on the quality of traditional tamahagane compared to modern carbon steel (phew and i didnt even mention pattern welded steel)  ahem oh yeah tinker enspired 5160 raptors :mrgreen: it'd be great if it was true |
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Post by chuckinohio on Mar 17, 2011 21:42:32 GMT
Most likely what happened.
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so tinker may very well be the inspiration for the raptor steel type
