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Post by GUEST on Mar 9, 2011 10:33:49 GMT
Steyr has opened a factory in the US they are making the AUG here. Really cut into the value of our 2 pre ban AUG carbines. Pictured is my,wife as one just like it. They are great little rifles.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Mar 9, 2011 12:30:09 GMT
Yes, sorry. 6.7 Grendel. Don't know why I typed 2.7...
I have heard the stories of dry ARs working. I have never experienced it in life. But then, few privately owned ARs are as heavily used as the ones I handle. You don't heavily and routinely oil an AR in the Army, you better hope your buddy can shoot your targets as well because you won't. AKs are an entirely different matter. Well, depending on manufacture. Done to military specs, they don't need much, if any oil because of their loose tolerances. Same with the 1911. A Lot of modern variants of both those weapons need more oil because of tightened specs for greater accuracy. Which is the ARs issue. Very few weapons have such tight tolerances.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 9, 2011 15:19:57 GMT
Rob - thanks for the input on the gas piston mods for the AR. I couldn't afford it anyway but I was wondering for future reference if they were worth the money and time to do. I love the gas piston system on my AKs and had often had discussions with AR aficionados who had also mentioned having a gas piston system rather than DI on an AR would be nice. Maybe by the time I could actually afford such a mod there will be more reliable systems out there.
Fallen - I've always loved the look and feel of the AUG rifle. I don't own one but I have some friends who have them and have shot them numerous times at the range. They are some seriously nice rifles - however bloody expensive - so much so that I cannot afford them any time in the foreseeable future.
Taran - I'm sure that keeping the AR oiled is a necessity in military use. I'm not refuting that - I'm just testing my AR with some abuse to see just how it handles. There's some serious snow coming down on my area today and if I can weasel in the time I might go out to the range and put a few hundred more rounds of ammo through the AR in the heavy wet snow just to see what happens. I am curious though about keeping the rifle that wet - wouldn't that attract and retain dust and sand in such an environment - like Afghanistan?
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Mar 9, 2011 22:21:34 GMT
Yeah, it's pretty counterintuitive. More oil you would think means more dust. But if you keep your dust cover closed when not actually sending rounds downrange, then a quick wipe and more oil at the first opportunity. White glove cleanings are B.A.D.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 10, 2011 14:56:26 GMT
Let me offer my voice in support of running DI ARs wet, i.e. well lubed. When doing high-round count training I just occasionally (every 200-300 rounds during the day) squirt a drop or two of oil into each of the two exhaust holes on the side of the bolt carrier (the holes visible through the ejection port). That will usually migrate and keep the weapon decently lubed in extended action. It isn't a substitute for actual cleaning and relubrication. But it'll keep a DI gun running when there's no time or opportunity for a real cleaning&lubrication.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 14, 2011 3:21:12 GMT
I was able to get out to the range this afternoon. After spending 4 hrs and over 1k rounds there with just the AR I can say I'm going to conclude the AR's dry run torture test. I'll also have some notes to make about what I did use to lube the firearm. I'll also have a curious problem to pick your brains about - at least all of you who know the AR platform well enough to give me an idea what this might be. 1. 1000 rds of 5.56 68gr Green tip PMC were fired in the AR with only breaks to reload mags and put up new targets. All rounds were fired through the AR from Magpul Pmags. Out of 1000rds I had 1 failure to fire - and it was the cartridge itself, not the firearm. The firearm cycled fine, shot fine and ejected fine. With the scope I put on it I'm shooting 1/4MOA from a bench. If I'm shooting unsupported umm... well at least I'd hit a man sized target at 100 yds! :? Anyway back to how the weapon works with little to no lube. It ran fine and there were no signs of unusual wear and/or friction on the moving parts. 2. What little lube I used on the firearm was Militec-1 oil and grease. I oiled the rotating parts and greased the sliding parts. Afterwards I wiped it down till there wasn't enough on the firearm to feel with a naked finger. That was done last week. Haven't cleaned or lubed the firearm since then. Conclusion about this: The AR is probably best run wet as stated by Taran and Mike. In the future I will make sure to run the firearm wet with Militec oil. However that being said it has been proven in my mind that for at least 1000rds the an AR COULD be run dry. I will also go so far as to say its a testament to the lubricating ability of the Militec stuff. Whenever possible though I'll keep the AR wet. Now on to the curious problem... After about 1100rds I loaded a fresh mag and pulled the trigger once. I got a "bang, bang!" I stopped and looked curiously at the firearm - since I only pulled the trigger once. I did so again, paying more attention to my finger movement than hitting dead center on the target. The firearm shot once when I squeezed the trigger then cycled and shot once more when I released the trigger. After a couple of times of that I wanted to experience this at a bit slower pace just to try and diagnose the issue. I squeezed the trigger slowly and held it wanting to see if I could hear what was going on inside. Instead of just "Bang!" the gun basically puked and the rest of the bullets in the mag peppered the targets downrange. I nearly soiled my pants at that since it was NOT expected. I loaded another fresh mag and the same thing happened. Now at first I thought it had something to do with the bolt, firing pin and bolt carrier group. I was wrong. Everything looks fine. Then I looked at the hammer and found there was a little bit of metal missing from the rear hook of the hammer. Please see the attached photo. I also noted that the way the hammer was failing to operate was not based solely on this - it seems as though there is some part of the rifle that is not catching and holding properly. So any ideas as to what exactly the problem is and how it can be remedied? EDIT: Ok so I took the lower apart, cleaned everything, lubed it with Militec and re-assembled it. The trigger group is now catching the hammer and upon dry firing everything seems to be functioning correctly - as in its the hammer is only falling once with every trigger pull. Sadly I may not be able to get to the range any time soon to check to make sure this fixed it. The hammer is still missing a little bit of steel from that hook though - so I think I should probably replace it anyway. Would that be a good idea? What about replacing the whole trigger group? Attachments:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 3:51:28 GMT
IMHO Looks like your disconnecter tore,chipped or ripped a chunk out of the hammer. Possibly during cycling from the carrier or from being caught be the disco. I would replace the entire lower parts kit with a new one from a reputable company. If your hammer is suspect then I would not trust the rest of the lower parts kit either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 6:47:31 GMT
YES REPLACE THE TRIGGER GROUP! Proper FA is a mechanically controlled event that requires parts you don't have. Not only is it a legal issue it is a safety issue also.
Please replace the hammer at a minimum and check the disconnecter. I agree that replacing the hole trigger group is a better idea.
The AR design is going to reduce the 'Out of battery detonation' (round going bang before it is fully seated in the chamber) but you may still be firing before the bolt can rotate to full lock up and risking a lot of stress on the system. Best case you will chip,shear or batter the locking lugs on the bolt and barrel extension. The rest of the possibilities are worse.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 14, 2011 12:06:33 GMT
Thanks guys! I've already got a lower parts kit on order from Midway USA made by DPMS. Its not match grade or anything (Mil-spec only) but I've heard pretty good things about DPMS and I love Midway as a retailer so I ordered. Sadly its on back order so I won't get it till at the very least the end of the month.
Once it gets here I'll put all the new parts in. This firearm is fairly old and I'm pretty sure the original owner put a lot of rounds through it but never replaced the original parts. Pretty sure that wear and tear got the better of the parts huh? Well in any case I guess the AR goes on bed rest till I get the new parts in her.
I knew about the legality issues - and thus ceased firing as soon as I realized that what was happening could not be remedied with a field stripping and cleaning. Being new to ARs though I didn't realize that there were safety issues like that too. I think when I rebuild the lower receiver I'll also check the upper ie. check the barrel and locking lug as well just to make sure there was no damage to it.
EDIT:
Ok so after doing a lot of reading between last night and today I've determined its definitely the hammer and disconnect that need to be replaced to solve the problem. Since I've got the whole parts kit on order but it won't be here till the end of the month and I'm a tad impatient when it comes to solving problems on my guns I'm going to order a new hammer and disconnect from Midway - should get here in a few days. That should fix the problem but when the parts kit gets here I'll go ahead and do a re-build. Thanks again guys!
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 14, 2011 14:35:25 GMT
That's a typical "fire on release" incident. I get them all the time when tuning JP match triggers. But it's from a slightly different cause. You just need a new hammer. Easy fix. Just don't load it until you replace the hammer and verify that the safety still works.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 14, 2011 18:47:28 GMT
Hey Mike thanks for the reply. I'd done some reading at the AR forum (which sadly I can't get an account at since I only have a gmail email account and they won't allow an account without an anonymous email account) and came up with that answer too. I'd ordered a lower receiver parts kit from Midway but that is back ordered. Therefore I called up the friend who I got the AR from and asked if his father had any spare parts laying around for the AR. He said that there was a box of stuff that looked like gun parts so I went over and he let me have all the parts I could find for the AR. I got a new mil-spec trigger group and hammer, a variety of springs, an A2 style stock and a couple of mag springs.
I've got the new trigger group and hammer installed now and just came back from the range. She shoots alright now but that trigger pull with the mil-spec trigger group is pretty heavy and a bit on the rough side. Any way to make that better without spending $100+ on a match trigger group?
Oh yes and this may sound silly that I got surprised by this incident however in all the AKs I've owned and all the rounds I've put through them I've never had this happen before. I've also never had this happen with any of the handguns I've owned either so yeah - I sound like a newbie here. Thanks for your patience - I think I've just learned that I have a lot more to learn when it comes to ARs.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 15, 2011 14:08:44 GMT
You should be able to go back to the original trigger. That may help with the pull weight. The problem was that the broken area of the hammer (the disconnector hook surface) was allowing the disconnector to release the hammer just before the trigger sear surface was in position to fully engage the hammer notch. The result was that the hammer under spring pressure was able to bump the tip of the trigger engagement surface out of the way and hit the firing pin. The slower you release the trigger, the more likely it was to let off one or more shots accidently. You can check for this at home with an unloaded rifle. Pull the trigger to drop the hammer on an empty chamber. While holding the trigger to the rear, cycle the action. Then slowly let the trigger out until the hammer slips off the disconnector and engages the trigger surface. It will be obvious if the hammer jumps over the trigger and falls to firing position. What you're looking for is that the rifle will stay cocked no matter how lightly you reset the trigger. There are a few other things you can do, but they are a bit too detailed to put in an internet posting. It might come out as a manifesto on AR trigger work.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 15, 2011 15:27:39 GMT
Thanks for the tip. I'll put the original trigger back in (actually I think the one that is in the firearm now is the "original" and the one that was in it when I got the rifle is a replacement) and that should help. As for the check to see whether or not the hammer stays cocked while resetting the trigger I had done that and it did remain cocked (at least with this whole new group in place). Now I'll put the old trigger back in and see if that remains the case. Thanks for the in depth explanation though on what was happening. I appreciate that - its nice to learn more about this firearm. I like it - I just don't know much about it yet. Oh and about that manifesto on AR trigger work - if at any time you decide you want to type it out rest assured that there's at least one person here who'd love to read it all. Thanks again.
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