Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 4, 2011 19:22:18 GMT
Ok so I just got myself into the world of AR based weapons. I was given a pre-ban AR-15 with an A2 upper (long 21" barrel) and a separate 16" Bushmaster flat top upper from a friend of the family after their father died. Apparently he wanted me to have them (along with a couple other firearms). Both chambered in 5.56 NATO.
After a couple of trips to the range I have a few questions:
1. This may sound stupid but when it comes to the AK based weapons I know what's going on regarding pre-ban and post ban etc. What can or can't I do with a pre-ban AR vs. a post ban?
2. Are carrying handle mounted picatinny rails worth the $13-$16 for them in regards to mounting optics to onto the A2 upper?
3. I seem to have an issue with the A2 upper - it fails to feed properly for the first 10 rounds or so of a 30rd mag. The mags I use are used 30rd Colt milspec mags. After the first 10 rds or so the gun feeds and fires fine. Until then its either a "bang" then "click" as the bolt fails to strip a round into the chamber or "bang" then stovepiping of the empty shell. At first I thought that it was short stroking but I read that this may not be the case since the final 20 or so rounds of the mag shoot just fine.
The flat top upper shoots just fine - no ftf, fte etc. so it makes me wonder. Is the problem the A2 upper - in that it has a faulty gas system and is short stroking or is the problem the mags - and should I get new mags? Bear in mind that the flat top upper shoots just fine - with the same bolt assembly and charging handle. Btw all my ammo I shoot is mil-spec PMC 5.56 NATO 68gr green tip.
Oh yeah I also picked up an AR based pistol in 5.56 NATO with an 8" barrel and that thing shoots and feeds perfectly fine with the same mags and ammo too.
Anyone got any ideas as to what this problem is?
Thanks in advance.
Sam
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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 4, 2011 20:32:38 GMT
Could it be a mag issue? Did you try these same three magazines with both uppers? Do you have other magazines that you can try in the malfunctioning rifle/upper?
Have you tried disassembling and cleaning the magazines? How do the followers track? (see "magazine tuning").
Were these rebuilt magazines (new followers and springs)?
Do you have a gunsmith in your area familiar with the AR15 that can help you?
There is nothing worse that an unreliable weapon. It's money well spent to solve the problem.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 4, 2011 22:41:02 GMT
From what you're described, I would initially guess at a minor short-stroking problem. First, does the A2 upper reliably lock the bolt open on an empty magazine? If not, that is a strong indication of short-stroking. But if it locks open every time, I would suspect the magazines.
As for the per-ban vs. post ban issue, that all depends on where you live. I'm not familiar with the laws in Wisconsin. Does your state have any provisions of a local "assault weapons" ban? Since the AWB expired, at least federally speaking, there is no such thing as a pre-ban/post-ban distinction anymore. These days, those terms are mostly only used to refer to features that were allowed during the ban vs. before and after the ban.
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Post by templar on Mar 4, 2011 22:57:11 GMT
Sam H: Ques. 1) First, the only stupid thing about pre/post ban regs are the regs. Believe it or not, ATF (OK BATFE) is very helpful if you call their D.C. # (here, paranoia can set in, but I have had nothing but helpfulness from them, much to my suprise). Mount a bayonet. Add a Flash suppressor or muzzle brake or sound supressor (if legal where you are). There may or may not :?: be other issues, depending on date of manufacture (this can get complicated). Ques. 2) Yes, if removeable. Ques. 3) your problem is the A-2 upper. It could be as simple as a good cleaning/reaming of the chamber or something a gunsmith must diagnose. You might try checking the fit (tightness) of the upper to the foreward part of the lower (a rear shim could help that, but I doubt it). I am guessing (dangerous) the upper and lower are not the same manufacturer, but if they are, knowing what make would help; also knowing the twist of all three might be relevant. That's about it off the top, feel free to PM if you think I can help more (I have built a few and owned and fired many, both semi and full auto (which was fine in specific, diciplined fire, combat situations but a real waste in general IMNSHO). Sounds like you have a generally very, very nice rig. Enjoy
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 5, 2011 1:34:10 GMT
In answer to the resulting querries:
- all mags were used and that is all I know. They were all tried with both uppers and with the AR pistol. Worked fine in thd short barreled flat top and the pistol. Ftf in the A2 upper for the first 10 or so rds thdn feedd fine afterwards.
- short stroking was a thought but after loading 1 rd in a mag and shooting thd bolt does indeed lock open on thd empty mag.
- there is no gunsmith within reasonable driving distance that knows the AR platform.
- both uppers are 1:9 twist. So is the pistol.
- I have not disassembled the mags yet. Wil do so tonight.
- the lower is an armalite receiver with aftermarket trigger group. A2 upper is also Armalite and may have been originsl with the lower. The flat top is a bushmaster.
I'm beginning to think its a mag issue. I'm going to try and get some magpul p mags or at least some new tapco mags and try again.
Thanks for the advice andd for any future advice you may have.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 2:48:33 GMT
All to often you will get what you pay for in the optics and mounts endeavor, 13-16 clams sounds uber cheap like airsoft copies of already cheap stuff. Also clean and lube well. Especially disassemble the extractor and clean under, in and around it. Got any range pics of the feed failures? Also a nice closeup of your magazine tops looking down in to the mag and perhaps a up-close of the breech face would be cool. And a link to the arfcom trouble shooting forum. www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=66best wishes. BTW, don't put the pistol upper on the rifle lower.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 5, 2011 4:24:14 GMT
I was thinking that about those optics handle mounts. Might go ahead and try anyway though. As for pics I will try and get range pics next time I get out there.
As for the pistol upper - I knew enough not to do that already but thanks though. SBR issues arise when one does that.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 5, 2011 14:36:32 GMT
My best advice is also to use the arfcom troubleshooting section. It's very helpful.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 7, 2011 0:46:29 GMT
Ok so I spent some time reading the ARf troubleshooting guide and came to the determination that it was a magazine problem. This morning there was a gun show in a nearby town and I went with my AR pistol to sell or trade.
I wanted to sell the AR pistol because while I hadn't had any issues with the gun (300 rds with no problems) I'd read that the setup (its a Professional Ordnance Carbon 15) had problems and was not entirely reliable. Even after they were purchased by Bushmaster and the designs tweaked then produced as Bushmasters they were troublesome. Aside from that the report of the pistol was deafeningly loud - even with ear protection my ears were ringing after 30 rds.
As such I got there when the show opened and as soon as I walked inside a dealer asked to look at the pistol. He liked it and made me an offer I couldn't refuse - a .22lr complete upper for an AR-15 and $100 cash in exchange for the pistol. Since I had read that these things sold for around $700 to $800 brand new and used they'd go for around $500 I figured it was a good deal. The .22lr complete upper was priced at $375 so with $100 cash the total was just $25 less than what I'd hoped to get for it.
Anyway with my new upper and cash I walked around the show (figured I should at least do one lap before leaving) and came across a guy selling brand new (still in the sealed plastic bag) Magpul 30 rd Pmags for the AR for $15 each! I snapped up 6 of them at a total of $90 and walked out of there feeling quite happy.
I came home, tried the .22lr upper on my lower and was happy to see it snapped right in without any modifications. I then went out back and fired off a couple mags of .22lr (the upper came with a mag). Sadly with it being a flat top receiver and since I didn't have any optics to mount onto it I didn't get to sight it in but just rattled off a couple mags. No FTF, FTE etc. I did have about 10 rds randomly fail to go off after being fired (looked like the strike from the firing pin was too light) but everything went well.
I then popped the A2 receiver on and headed out to the range where I could shoot something a little stronger than a .22 and not get in trouble. I loaded up all 6 Pmags and emptied them out without issue in rapid succession. I swapped out the A2 for the flat top in 5.56 and quickly emptied all 6 Pmags without issue. Problem solved - it was the old worn out mags that came with the rifle.
Now I only wish I'd had more cash so I could get more of the pmags... nice mags they are! He said he had about 30 of them and honestly if I had the cash for it I'd have bought them all.
Thanks for all the suggestions and help!
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Mar 7, 2011 18:55:03 GMT
The AR loves oil. Keep it wet. How much oil do you have on the A2 when firing?
Save you money on the handles and just get optics for the flattops. The handle gets in the way when it comes time to using a decent sight of any kind and they don't make good iron sights on those removable handles anymore. I hate the BUIS so much I specifically asked my armourer to assign me an A2 rather than an A4 (flattop).
Did the MagPul mags fix your FTE problem on the A2?
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 8, 2011 2:56:45 GMT
The AR was dripping (not literally but quite wet) when I first test fired it. After I got the magpul mags I wiped off the majority of the oil and gave it a Militec-1 treatment - a light layer of Militec 1 oil on all moving parts.
Test shooting at the range with the new mags was done with the rifle almost bone dry. There were no FTF, FTE or other malfunctions. I'd say with good faith that the issues were magazine issues.
As for the optics mount on the handle of the A2 upper - yeah I read up on them and decided against it. I'll just put some optics on the flat-top and go with that. I'm halfway tempted to swap the barrels though so the flat top has the longer 21" barrel and the A2 upper has the shorter barrel. I figure if I'm going to have optics on the things I'd like the longer barrel paired with the optics - for more accuracy at longer ranges while the shorter barrel is paired with the iron sights on the A2 for a quicker more mobile rifle in short range engagements.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Mar 8, 2011 3:19:09 GMT
That would be a good idea (longer barrel with optics, shorter barrel with iron sights). Continuing to fire while almost dry would not. You don't want it to spit oil out the charging handle when firing, but that's only because it'll get in your eyes. Store oiled, fire oiled. I don't know of any other weapon with such an appetite for oil.
If you're going to get serious about the AR collection, I recommend an upper chambered in 2.7 Grendel. An AR10 (.308/7.62) is also a decent choice.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 8, 2011 3:29:32 GMT
I run my ARs rather dry and have no issues. Since they "crap where they eat" (as one gun-writer (BTP) described direct impingement) don't encourage them to foul. James R. Jarrett several years back decided to see how long he could run his AR without cleaning or lubing. He shared with us during a break in one of his T&T courses that he had over 2000 rounds through his and was still going strong. The only "maintenance" he performed was to smear a single drop of oil on the bottom of the bolt carrier where it rides over the top round of the mag. Stoic. I am excessive by his standards. I lube my ARs in four places: (1) I apply grease to the recoil buffer spring so it doesn't have that comical "twang" (one time) (2) I apply a drop of oil to the top of the charging handle (run in back-and-forth a few times) (3) I smear a drop of oil on the four contact points of the bolt carrier (4) I smear one drop on the bottom of the bolt carrier Done.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 8, 2011 3:39:45 GMT
Thanks. Yeah I'm rather a novice in the world of ARs. I fire my AKs almost bone dry - treated with Militec-1 oil but almost bone dry. I've never had an AK fail on me except for defective mags. I do the same with my other rifles and handguns - and also never had a failure due to lack of lubrication. I'll keep your advice in mind next time I go to fire the rifle.
As for a 2.7 Grendel - I'm not exactly a neophyte in the world of firearms but I've never heard of a 2.7 Grendel. Do you mean a 6.7 Grendel? If you do I've already considered it however a serious lack of funds will prevent me from acquiring any more ARs for a good long time to come. As for an AR-10 I'd seriously considered one a while ago but opted instead to get a Saiga rifle chambered in .308 and 1000rds of ammo for the cost of the AR-10. Perhaps when my finances take a turn for the better I'll start meddling more into the world of ARs.
As for what Larry wrote - now I'm confused. Since this AR was free and parts are fairly easily found and inexpensively (entire lower parts kits can be found on Brownell's for around $60) I might try to continue firing the AR almost bone dry and see what happens. If I break the rifle it shouldn't be too difficult to rebuild it back to working order.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2011 5:27:15 GMT
As a basic guideline I go by the old axiom of oil on rotating parts and grease on sliding parts. It seems to work well.
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Post by Stromlo_Swords_USA on Mar 8, 2011 9:54:28 GMT
Here I was looking at swords and you guys have to start talking AR's. Now I'm missing the good ol Texas gun range again ... Have fun for me fella's! Rob
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 8, 2011 13:58:21 GMT
That's pretty close to what I usually do too. I just use very little oil and/or grease however.
Rob I just noticed your location on your profile. Honestly I looked at your SN and thought - Isn't he based in the US? Anyway now that I see where you're at I'll just say I'm sorry Rob. I'll head out to the range and put a few mags down range for you this afternoon.
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Post by Stromlo_Swords_USA on Mar 9, 2011 0:51:32 GMT
Thanks Sam,
Use nice ammo for me, no steel casing ya hear!
I'll stop interupting the thread now - glad to see the new mags were able to solve the problems!
Cheers, Rob
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Mar 9, 2011 1:52:47 GMT
Well you got me there Rob - I spent a couple hrs at the range today and put a few mags downrange from one of my AKs and from my AR. The AKs are fed almost primarily Wolf or Tula 7.62 (which are all steel cased). The AR was fed brass cased PMC 68gr. green tipped FMJ. No steel cases. I also spent some time sending some rounds downrange from my favorite 1911. All brass casings there too. Now back to topic - range report on the AR with new Magpul Pmags. I burned off 360 rds at the range through the AR. All sent through the 6 newly acquired Pmags. No failure to load, double loads, fte etc. Each trigger pull resulted in a bang and the nice sound of an FMJ projectile impacting an 18" steel plate at 100yds. I fired all 360 rds through the A2 receiver since that was the one I had troubles with. 180 rds at a slow rate of fire, taking time to zero and fire. The last 180 rds were done after reloading the mags and fired at rapid fire from the shoulder. Everything went as it was supposed to. I'm quite pleased. The rifle was fired nearly bone dry. The lube had been wiped off all surfaces inside and outside of the rifle. The militec-1 oil is supposed to bond with the metal at high temps and even when bone dry still gives a dry lubrication. I tested this in the AR and thus far it looks like it works fine. Next time I get a chance to go to the range and put more rounds through I'll post another update - with pics. I forgot my camera this time around. Anyway I think the issues have been remedied. On a different note - what do you guys think of the gas piston system that various manufacturers are putting out as mods for the AR? I'm talking about kits like this: www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=30934/Product/AR_15_M16_GAS_PISTON_CONVERSION_KITI kinda like the idea of this - giving the AR a gas system similar to what's used in H&Ks and my dear AKs. Anyone dealt with these and how easy/difficult are they to mount? What about performance?
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Post by Stromlo_Swords_USA on Mar 9, 2011 8:08:34 GMT
Thanks Sam - yeah wolf through AK's is fine, it's just AR's can get some real sempriniesque failures cause the tolerances are tighter and pulling steel casing can cause damage. I used to work at the gun store/range thats why I get withdrawl some times.
We sold the piston upgrades, but I would steer clear. No one had used them enough for my confidence - and the meshing of different manufacturers parts could lead to unreliability in a vital area.
I do love gas piston firearms and think they are superior though, the Steyr we Aussies carry I still love, I'd save the money to put towards a purpose built piston rilfe like the MSAR (The American built Steyr AUG) or an AR platform like the LMT or LWRC Piston (if you have the $$$).
But I havent done much research on long use of the piston upgrade, anyone here got one?
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